How To Generate 1000 Inquiries Per Year As A Logo Designer | With James Martin

[00:00:00] Welcome back to another episode of the six figure creative podcast. I'm your host Brian Hood. And I am here with another special guest interview today from somebody who's kind of a legend, I guess, in the logo space, in the design space, a guy that goes by I guess his brand is made by James and his name is James Martin.

And for anyone who hasn't heard of this guy, this interview is one of my favorites that I've had in a while because we get to go really deep into. Any sort of freelance business work. This is not just for designers. If you're a designer, great. You're going to have a lot of things that are specifically caters to you.

But for all of our other freelancers to listen, here's what we dive into for this interview. We talked through him being in one of the most oversaturated niches that I think exists in the design world. I could be wrong, but from my perspective, a logo designer, like. Logo designers are everywhere.

this is a hard place to stand out. And James has done such a great job of building a client acquisition machine for his, freelance business that we talked through this on the interview, he gets 800 to a thousand quote requests or inquiries per year. That's like 75 to 80 per month.

So if you're interested in figure out how [00:01:00] to get more quote requests, even if you're in a saturated market, This interview is absolutely going to be for you. We also go through. Some of the processes and things he's built out as a freelancer to really make his business run like.

And I say that in a really good way, meaning like the parts that are not creative, all run like a machine, like any good freelancers should do. You should be building your business up to be a machine so that you're freed up as the creative to be creative. And James has done a really good job of that. So we talked through systems he's built out for himself.

We talked through how he's worked his way up to bigger and better clients you know, the smaller nickel and dime projects all the way up to now charging three to five to 10 to 20, 40, $50,000 for project now and how it used to do. 60 to 80 to 100 projects a year. Now he's actually brought it back down to 20 to 30 a year with much higher price per project.

So for anyone listening right now, there's going to be something in this interview for you. So So I'm going to end this long intro here and go straight into my conversation with James Martin.

So, James, first of all, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. My did.

Yeah, no, thank you for, for having me.

it's a pleasure to be here. A pleasure.

Yeah, we were joking [00:02:00] about this earlier, before we even started

recording that, like it's, in the day Friday for you. Like, this is the last thing you're doing. And I'm like, man, if you have any energy left at this point for anything to give our audience in this point, I consider that a win and a, and a victory for, for creatives around the world.

Cause like in our world, like

there's So much that gets drained out of us when we're doing creative work at a high level I don't know about you, but like at the end of the day, especially a Friday, just want to turn on a TV and let the

TV talk to me. I don't want to do anything.

Yeah. Yeah, I get the, I been to me, like I said, like, I'm pretty up, from when I wake up to when I go to sleep, but I also sleep for, a long time. so anything in between that even Friday after that I'm pretty bang into, and also also sunny today in the UK and it's Friday

Which is rare.

are very wrapped.

So yeah, it's a, win-win when.

Well, let's dive into this man. Cause I think there's a

lot that you can

bring our audience of building a successful freelance business. And specifically I've already mentioned all this in the intro that you are a logo designer and you do a bunch of other stuff. You've kind of like evolved over the years.

You've been in business for [00:03:00] 17 years now. I think you

said. and to me,

logo design has to be, I

don't know, the design world that well, cause that's not my

background, but logo design has to be one

of the most oversaturated industries for a designer. Would you

agree or disagree or like, what's your thoughts on how saturated.

Yeah, I mean, I think, with the birth of social media, I think it has become that space. I don't think it always was. Social media has happened. And through social media, there's been this kind of big drive towards people, niching doubt, or you can make X amount of money as a designer, and you can make X amount of money doing this. and you know, as much as I love social media as a tool and how powerful it can be. I think what it has done is it's created a bit of a mixed conversation for, what's possible for designers. I mean, people aren't particularly patient anymore.

Like I was a graphic designer, a designer for, over a decade before I niched out into logo design. And [00:04:00] now I know kids who are coming out of college with no expertise or no industry know how and focusing down into. niches within niches without even understanding how the industry works.

So, is super saturated, but I think that's because of how the design world has been portrayed through social media. So, I mean, I'm a slightly older past job or my sporty, you know, I've been in the game for like 17 years and my process or my journey in design was very much start at the bottom, work your way up.

And now people just want to be at the top, even though they have no idea what they're doing. And I think I'm a bit worried to be fair about the industry and where it's going. But what I do know is the people that are still here in 10 years

time are the right people. That's

what I'm going to say,

Hundred percent agree with that. And so there's a

neon sign on my wall that I don't know if you can see in the screen, depending on

how you have your, your window set

up, it says it takes more than passion.

And that's kind of the [00:05:00] motto

of this podcast. I think one of the things I wanted to talk to you the most about is

those extra things above and beyond passion that are required in order to be successful.

And I know that you're a very process-driven

person based on what I've seen from you, based on what I've heard on other interviews with

you, based on what I've seen in my own research, looking into your business and

like getting into your own funnels and

things like

that. And so I want to talk about that because there's so many other freelance niches that

are super

saturated, like logo design.

I can go to Fiverr dot right now and get somebody for 50 bucks to

design me a logo. I can go to 99 designs right now. And for 250

bucks, I can have 30 people throw me logo ideas. And yet here you are.

18 years into your career, still successful. And I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that you are so processed, driven, and I want to get into this today.

Cause I have a whole, I have like a bunch of bullet points,

things I looked into your business to see what you're doing to

stand out. And I think the first thing that I want to talk to you about is the thing that is

missing from so many people. And this is a big piece

of what I call like your client acquisition puzzle is how you build

trust with people. Because when I look at [00:06:00] something like Fiverr any of the designers on there, when I look at something like nine, nine designs and the plethora of, of desperate designers that are on there, no, no offense to them, it's just, don't understand business right now. They probably don't listen to this podcast.

But I look at you

though. trust you so much from the wall behind you for any of who people are watching on YouTube right now. And

like how much cool stuff you have behind you, really cool backdrop with your, your custom designs back there to your Instagram, with great stuff on there. Like just talk through some of the things that you've done over the years to build trust and credibility for yourself.

great question. And probably what we can talk about for a good few hours. But I think in the first say, I want to start, what I start with is the, passion, where do you know what we, what you mentioned there? And I think, firstly like passions can be hobbies.

Do, I mean, you don't have to make money out of a passion. I think that's a really important thing to

know and also there's the other point that, your passions evolve, I think with patience and with, dedication. So I wasn't always a passionate designer. I didn't start off a passionate designer or a [00:07:00] graphic designer or, I definitely didn't start off with a passion for logo design.

the longer that I was in the industry, the more time and energy I gave to the. That passion kind of found me, if I went back to that 17 years old

and followed my passion, I'd have been a drug taking alcoholic rugby player, Jada, I

mean, so Hey, I wouldn't be dead.

Do you know what I mean? So I think it's really important. People always talk about following your passion. I actually try. And I like to think that your passion will find you, if you give it enough time and you put enough energy into it. And I, I truly, I truly truly believe that. Cause I think some people go, oh, I really like, they're kind of confusing, passion for like lust for fame. And I think that's probably, what's you know, a bit of a funny conversation right now, but again, we can kind of talk about that,

so you actually brought up a really

important point. Then I'll go back to

my question and point being like we can be passionate about something and it's not really what our calling is. Sometimes as we start

progressing towards something, that's maybe a better for us, something that [00:08:00] is the area we need to be moving towards, that we know in our gut is the place we should be going.

Even though

it may not be our, our passion right now, that's still the thing that. we learned to grow our passion in.

And I I can look at my past and think of like all the skills I've had developed over the years to

become more successful and to, to hone my craft into different

areas. I've built passions for things that I had no idea

I would have a

passion for. So I think you've nailed it.

When you said that, like sometimes we find our passion

in doing deep, meaningful work, and a lot of

that has to come from understanding

process. So getting back into the process conversation we can talk all about the process of design, all about the process of the actual work, but I really want to start with.

What you've done really well, which is the process of building trust for yourself. And you've done it through Instagram, social media, other areas. I think you do a lot on Pinterest. just how, how you come across as such a credible designer. It starts from everything from your website design, like just talk us through some of the things and how you think through making sure that you will come across as a legitimate designer, someone that's above and beyond and better than the options on Fiverr and 99 designs and the other places I could go [00:09:00] find a designer right now.

I mean, I, I, I like to kind of frame I'm a big reframer, you know, rather than like, how do I get clients or how can I make money? You know, I personally think is how can I get clients to trust?

How can I get clients to trust me enough to give me their money? when you reframe it in that way, and you look at yourself, inwardly from a client point of view, from a different perspective, I'm thinking like, what would a client want to see? what would somebody wanting to part with that decent hardo cash walk to see for me to be able to do that?

How can I make that easier for them? I think there's a couple of things. So the first one I would say, well, I like to call it your digital footprint. You know, you've even mentioned it just then. So what I would classify digital footprint is like everything that made by James James Martin touches online [00:10:00] needs to be.

Up there. Data means soever. That's my website, whether that's my social media, so we can kind of break it down to a set of things. So, I still personally believe all the may. Many other people might not truly believe in it. I still think our website is your best asset, Jada. I mean, social media platforms, they can be taken away.

We live in or rented land. Then, you know what happened? What was it? Six months ago, a year ago, Instagram went down, anybody who had an Instagram business solely focused on Instagram, suddenly lost everything. Do you know what I mean? That is a very dangerous space to be in. So I truly believe as a creative a website somewhere where somebody can contact you so we can share a little bit about yourself, show your work and all the rest of it is, is essential.

So, I like to think of it as, like I said, this digital footprint. where I've got my website. And I've also got my social media and there's also testimonials and on Google reviews or whatever like that. So[00:11:00] I'm thinking like, if I was the client, if I found somebody on Instagram, for example, and I saw vertical work, I'd go.

Yeah. Yeah. They're really cool. But you know, I'm looking to spend maybe up to 5, 10, 20 K here. I'm not just going to go on a whim and just Chuck, that guy money. I want to go and check out his website. I want to go check out some testimonials. I might jump on LinkedIn and see what's going on.

I might go and check out Pinterest. I might go and, maybe find one of his old clients and figure out, like I said, like it was my testimony. It was just so good. So what I'm trying to do. At every single point on my digital footprint, we'll call it. if a client has any doubt, I'm ticking them, and that's where I think the next point comes in.

We've referenced the digital footprint is consistency. So at no point at any stage, do I not show up? so for example, I would think, you know, if I went on to go and [00:12:00] employ somebody for work and the last post they did on Instagram was four and a half months ago, I'd be thinking, but they're not working anymore.

Unfortunately, that's just the way it is not. So I try and show up consistently. I'll try to update my website consistently. I try to get testimonials consistently. I like, I have a

process for actually acquiring testimonials from people. So it's always. Pretty recent rather than

two decades ago. Joe, what I mean?

So when you try and reframe, like as a designer we go, or how do I get clients? How do I make more money? How do I get better

playing cards? What we should be

doing is thinking we reframe

and that slightly go and how can I get better paying

folks to trust me? I need to show them

everything possible to allow that to happen. And I think that

comes through digital footprint

and consistency and the combination of both and also not

being a massive Dick. You know what I mean? I

think, being yourself is a, has been a huge asset to me for a very, very long [00:13:00] time. I was trying to be something that I wasn't, you know, my first agency role, I I didn't really know who I

was then I wasn't too sure. And who I was

or what I wanted to be in. Held me back, but ever since I just leaned

into this it's gone

tremendously well uh, because very transparent about my process.

I'm very transparent about my past and what I've been through. And I

think where some people may think that should be private and I'm like, that's fine, but this is also my journey. And my story, if I want to tell it I'm allowed to, and what that's actually done is that it's made me a little bit more, approachable and human.

I think in such

a digital landscape, which unfortunately as creators, we are very heavily in wherever we you, especially also with COVID when we couldn't even see anybody, it was all digital. Joe is all online. And it's very difficult to. Understand. Who's real. Who's not.

And that's what, I would say [00:14:00] to any freelance with your own business or your own small agency or whatever it is that your face and yourself is your one of your best selling points. You know, people want to see a human and work with a few men. So yeah, I suppose those, your face digital footprint and consistency with all of those

things wrapped up in a nice little bubble, I would say is a, is a good way to go.

when I was talking to you before we even start recording, you just said, I'm an open

book. I'll talk about anything. Like you, you're just like, there's nothing off limits that we can't go to, And I think that's one of your biggest strengths than something that our audience can really Take page from your playbook

here and say like, are you being as open as, as James

says, cause if James, you have 228,000 followers on Instagram last I checked and a lot of that. And from what I can understand, it's because you're an open book on there. You share everything on there, your processes you share behind the scenes, you share how You give me a great idea of what it would be like to

work with you.

If I was looking to hire somebody and that's, I

think what attracts people to you and actually back [00:15:00] in episode 202 me and my substitute co-host mark Acharit. We talked about how to attract your dream clients. And the whole gist of that episode was you attract them by becoming attractive and you become attractive by being the type of person that would attract. a high-class client. So if you're attracting only bottom of the barrel clients that you don't want, you'd probably have to start looking at yourself and say, man, I might need to start working on myself to become a better person that would attract these higher tier clients. And if you look at someone like James, our guest today, and what he puts out into the world, he puts out a, lot of stuff.

That's going to attract a lot of high quality clients for his businesses. and most people listening today, if you're struggling with client acquisition, it's probably because you don't have that sort of content backlog, that digital footprint that James has put so much time, effort and energy into building.

And, just to kind of 0.1 thing out is you're not really even posting that much like you're posting maybe once a day on your main feed, maybe once a week on reels and a lot of your rails are doing really well. Do you just want to touch really quick on, on some of that element of building your social following?

Because [00:16:00] not many people have 228,000 followers.

to be fair. I mean, there has to be a plan and there has to, you know, everything that you and others see today has been five, 10 years in the making, you know, it hasn't happened overnight. And that's why I I'm a big believer in having a plan and having a mission and figuring out your purpose and then allowing that to evolve at the speed it's supposed to, you know, I, for example, when I started may by James, you know, which was, I think five or six years ago now there's loads of cool logo designers out there. And there's, those are cool logo designs, but I didn't really know how that made or the thinking behind them. So I just bought, I'm going to start sharing my thinking.

I'll shut sharing sketches and. Talk people through my decision making and it was like, whoa, why are you telling everybody all your secret sunlight? I've seen the creative world, like, do this, like I always kind of grew up with it, you know, as a teenager and all the rest of it being quite inclusive and like [00:17:00] helpful.

And people would always kind of help you out. But I think with the rise in social media, I don't know, I can't blame everything on social media. It could just be a generation thing. I don't know what it is, but it seems to become as quite cliquey, Oh, you have to pay for that. If you want to know it I understand, you know, I've got a course now.

You know, I think there's still like I can teach people and tell people how I create stuff and what my mind does, but that doesn't mean that they can just pick up my brain and use it and make money out of it. That's not really how it works. You know, it takes a long time to evolve this stuff, but, when do you kind of talk about, you know, the process we've referenced to like how it all came about?

Especially that we've made by James, what it is now, that was a plan five years ago that I want to kind of really niche down into logo design. And my only plan was, I would just love it. If I created logos all day, my thoughts, you know, got busy agency, which was doing all sorts of stuff, but I didn't really like doing all sorts of [00:18:00] stuff.

And I just thought if I can get to the place where I'm designing logos all day, every day and making good money, I'm in a happy place, That's now happened. but now, my kind of plan and everything's evolving, cause it kind of, I realized that, oh, hang on a minute, maybe there's this.

Like I said, like let's loose plans. I had a plan to become a logo designer and everything. Like a book came into that, the opportunity to do a course, you know, podcasts, you know, opportunities come in. And like my mission was basically everything logo design. So everything that comes in with reference to low and I'll do, and I'll jump at it.

If somebody says to me do you want to start this dog walking company with me? I blah, it's not a part of my mission Jada meeting. So having that kind of plan and knowing exactly where I want to be and who I want to become, allows me to be very, focused and clear about what it is I need to be doing on the daily.

And

when it comes to growing an audience, it was. I'm purely going to

be putting [00:19:00] content out that allows clients to trust me. And I know if I can

share stuff in and around how I

think, I think that's going to be a really big selling point because there's not a lot of people doing that. So I've consistently done that over the last five years.

And now,

yes, I'm leaning a little bit more into, as we kind of progress and how I progress. I want to kind of give back more to the design community because I want to be that guy, You know, I want to be the guy that helps up a designer. So I put a lot of content around, helping mindset and creative people like break, try and get out of their funk.

John, I made and help them out. But what you'll see is

like, the content I put out is also twofold because

even like when I share a

post and how I think, that works

for a. Getting clients and also showing designers how I do

stuff, which they can then take away. So, like I said, like, it's not like I don't do five posts a day, you know, I'm pretty consistent.

I maybe do four or five a week. I'll have [00:20:00] some days off because I don't want to be on social media every day Um, I enjoy my life outside of work and I think not putting a huge amount of pressure on it has kind of, Allow me just to get into this vibe. And also it's like, just thinking about what I'm putting out, you know, is it just, there is a pictures of my dog.

There is a pictures of me around the fire, you know, I used to do a lot of that by fully focused my made by James account or work and getting clients and helping designers. That's what it's there for in the stories and stuff. I'll share a bit more day-to-day life agency stuff, but the

content is fully focused on business, making money, you know, making a life for myself.

you are making the transition and we actually had an episode on this awhile back where we talked about the

like six levels of freelancing part one and two, which is episodes 180

5 and 180 6. But as you get to level five and level six, you start to what I call it, graduate to other levels where you

start offering done with you a coaching sort of thing, or do it

yourself, a course sort of thing And you're now getting into [00:21:00] that which is a wonderful part of the journey as a freelancer, but you it's, because you've put so much work and effort into building your name, your brand, your

credibility as a service provider

first and earning the right to do that,

which I think is a huge

part of this. let's change gears a little bit.

And talk through your process for sales, because kind of on the theme today of it takes more than passion. That's the theme of this podcast. and, if you're a designer listening right now, really anyone in any creative field right now passion is great.

It's a great motivator. It's a great place to start, but if we want to make a living from it, we have to build processes. especially our weak points, but even our strengths, like you have your creative process. you have processes for sales, for client acquisition, which we just kind of talked about.

so I want to talk about um, the, next step and what I would call it, your funnel, which is the sales process, because they're discovering you right now.

Top of funnel from all of your, your digital footprint, basically, they, you have a website, you have your social media accounts with hundreds of thousands of followers.

You have your Pinterest which we didn't even get into, which has millions of views on there. The stuff you've posted on Pinterest and people are finding you, they're learning more about you.

They're [00:22:00] becoming aware of you, they're building trust with you, which is the most important part, because you're sharing your process. You're sharing how you think you're showing them what it would be like to work with you essentially. And then they land on your website and they fill out the form potentially work with you And actually you actually have a mailing list to how big a part is your mailing list, by the way, in your overall business.

I would uh, Jeffery creative to build a newsletter or mailing list, whatever way you want to call it. I think it's an essential thing. But as Diaz, definitely mine is very much more designer focused rather than client focused. So obviously baby giant has a very much more client focused agency work, feel to it, whereas made by JS is very much not trig guiding.

But that has Been essential to me being able to sell the course as well. It has been, and it has accurately, it has targeted. I think I should say is, you know, because especially with like, we talk about numbers and yes, 228,000 or whatever it is on [00:23:00] Instagram, you know, which isn't a stupid number and I'm very proud that I've got that I've never bought any followers.

I've

never, you know, faked it or done anything, but it's the grab my full, I only like one or 2% of my followers.

See my that's why I feel a

newsletter is, you know, I'm constantly trying to push people to my newsletter because if you want to hear from me, this is the place to do it because am in control of sharing that information I am in control of when you get it. Whereas something else that we talked about with rented land, social media, they could take my countdown tomorrow if they wanted. So to me, looking at somebody, finding out, I don't even know what they

do now, but Yeah. I knew that she was essential.

Yeah. And it's funny, we had a, we had Peggy Dean, which I think is a friend of yours on the

podcast and episode 2 0 1. So just a few episodes ago. And she said the exact same thing. She has a social media following over a hundred thousand and she says her mailing list is by far the most valuable

asset in her business. And that's why, again, I'm trying to get more and more of our followers

to understand

that because[00:24:00] you said

one or 2% of your, of your Instagram following will

see the posts that you make, but the industry average of a mailing list is 20% open rate that doesn't even include the people that still see your subject line and your name that puts you top of mind.

Again, don't even open the email and most email lists that I've seen that I have are 30% plus

open rates. If you keep them clean and happy and active.

I just want to jump in super quick that I've got a 43% open rate on

mine. It's a, it's a

base state. so I'm trying to get out to 50. I love it,

You're more than you're more than double the industry average.

I love that. I like Ben more than that. well.

I'm also double the size of the average achievement assessment.

Yeah. You're a big dude. All right. So

let's, let's move on to next step in the, in this process of, your sales process. Because again, like most creatives at most they'll get like a court request or an email or someone asks the rates and they'll text it back or their email it back and then they're scared to get on the phone or do anything.

Or they come from a really timid scarcity kind of mindset in place. I feel like from what I've heard from your sales process, you have a pretty good process in [00:25:00] place to

weed, out bad leads to bring in the good leads and then close them. Can you talk through what

happens when the point that someone actually reaches

out to you for pricing or for quotes?

what you do from that. point?

Yeah. So, I

mean, I think it's also before I jumped too far

into it, I think process should always be

evolving. My kind of onboarding

validation, client validation processes constantly evolving and it's even different now from what it was six, months ago. So I think what you should be doing is I'm a big believer.

Like whenever I

get too comfortable, I'm thinking something's got to change here. So I change up and I'm always, I'm big into that.

Relearning and like asking

people and don't she like, so what do you do? How do you onboard clients? And then going my initially I'm like, well, that would work for me. And then I go away without the

ego go.

Well, that's actually not a bad idea. So yeah, I think it's really, really

important to always be evolving your process, but to kind of answer your question.

So let's talk about logo design

and, you know, [00:26:00] onboarding a

client in that respect. So time

is extremely important and it's extremely valuable.

And You don't want to, waste it on people that can't afford you. So especially when it comes to kind of my brand and who I am,

I think if you.

start on the right foot with reference to controlling the process, it allows you to control the creative process.

So there's so many processes within processes within processes, but if somebody comes to me, let's say via by

website, emails me via my website, messaged me on text, leg 10 DM on Instagram

and a message on Pinterest. Yeah, word of mouth or whatever it

is. I always ask them to email me.

So paper trail is essential. I don't like to flap around and WhatsApp, DM email, you know, I want one place to communicate with my clients. So if anybody ever contacts me from any particular direction, I'm like, send me an email, [00:27:00] give me a brief idea of what it is you do. Um, what your plans are, you know, a little bit of background, just to kind of, just to kind of give me some idea, what that would be really does is the people who can't be bothered to email me.

that tells me that they're not that interested in doing a logo. So if he can't be bothered to send me an email with a little bit of info you'll go, you know, I'll kinda just tell you here. I'm not, you know, I'm trying to figure out myself wherever I want to work with you as well.

Not necessarily do you want to work with me? So become a bother to do that. I'm not interested. So anybody that does email me, I have like a particular process and, based on deliverables, I have like a pricing structure. So I'm very open and upfront about what my, what my services costs.

so basically what I've done in the past is I will have, they'll send me a little brief email about what it is that. I will send them, a pre formatted kind of email template based on, these are my packages. This is what you get within these packages [00:28:00] go ultimately is based around logo design.

so I have a, like a logo

package. I have like a brand identity package and the further you go down, the cost increases. But then I also have like a bespoke package where there's obviously at the agency, we do website, email marketing, SEO, and all the rest of it. So other people who I work with have

all the other skills to do all the other bits and pieces. So sometimes people might come in through the logo

funnel, and leave spending 30, 40, 50

K on websites, all the rest of it. So there's quite a nice little in, but what I do is I share that straight

away, those prices and. What that allows me

to do is start the validation process. if they've got the money daily, may I be back 70% of the people that asked me for

prices I never hear back from.

And I

think having this kind of process, in place as allowed me not to waste time on 70% of the people that reach

out to me and fully focus on my time on the people that [00:29:00] do, but like I said, like, my process is evolving and it has

recently evolved. So now I

do something slightly I've tweaked to ever so slightly.

So they will still come through that email funnel there last week. Can I, can I blog, um, yeah, I'd love a logo or I'd love to do

work with you. I'd love to build my brand with all the rest of it. What I actually do now, which is

have added step in front of me.

Which is basically I get them to fill out a little form and that little form is just gives me their contact details. I asked them to just give me a little bit of insight about the company. And I also asked them for their budget. So I have like under five, between five and 10, 10 to 2020 plus. And the reason I started to do this was because I want to offer more and more, and it's not about using the client's budget up.

It's about me being able to do more for the client. And I think that's a very, very important way to look at it. I'm not a big believer in like charging people, different [00:30:00] amounts of money based on how much money they've got. But if somebody has got five to 10, K I basically jumped on a call with them and say, look, what do we need?

And what can we achieve

for your budget? basically I want to do slightly less work, but do. Make a project. So that's kind of where I've evolved to. I was doing like 80 to a hundred logos a year over the last five years. I want to

be moving to, 10 to 15, but much bigger projects, which allow me to do more courses, more coaching and all the rest of it.

So the kind of little tweak in the process now is asking the client upfront and getting them to be honest with me about what are they willing to invest in this process? You know?

one important fact to point out here for anyone listening and saying, I want to replicate this process and that is that James is not

desperate for leads. I can't tell you how many times I see people who are like chasing down every single lead that comes in, because they're so desperate for it.

if you were desperate for leads, this is not necessarily [00:31:00] the process you want to follow. And I learned this from Alex or mosey, which is an incredible entrepreneur and his process for this is

first create lead. Then learn how to monetize that

flow and only then do you start adding friction into that

process? So if you're still struggling to figure out what it is you're doing or what your process? is, and You don't have a lot of

leads, get on the phone with.

Talk to everybody, budget, no budget, whatever. Just talk to everybody to learn. And then as you start to get more and more clients, you learn more about them.

You start to close more people, then you can start adding layers of friction in like James has done. here to weed out people who are clearly not a good fit. And you started first with an email and you gave pricing upfront and that would weed people out. Now you show your budget ranges as under 5k. I E anyone that knows how forms work and how things typically work.

If you click that first option under 5k, he's probably not going to really give you much time because like that's under my threshold everyone's threshold is different. So you can put yours like under a thousand, under 2000, whatever your, your budget ranges are. but I just now.

started doing that on my website, which is doing [00:32:00] budget ranges, which allows me to keep people from like, just putting no budget or not sure, or whatever.

Like they have to select one of these things for their budget. And so if it's the lowest number, probably not a good fit for me.

we kind of mentioned at the beginning, it's about saving time, I know people who will go through creating PDFs, they'll create presentations, they'll have discovery calls with people all before they understand the client budget, so they'll put in days and days and days of work to find out the plant's got a hundred bucks, you've just lost a huge amount of money on that person, John.

I mean, so like I said, I had a bit of a lucky position because I've validated my offering through decades of building a reputation, but it wasn't always that case it's kind of evolved to what it is now. Like you said, I don't think we should be as creatives, scared about asking our clients, how much do you want to spend?

[00:33:00] Because it's not about being rude. It's like, how can I a. Bring the most value to you for your budget? I would try to validate wherever I'm the right person for you. And if I'm not, if they are slightly shy, I can introduce them to people who I know that do work with that budget. You know what I mean, as well.

So some of the prices I kind of have put out there, you know, when they've put in this budget range and I've put it out, I'm thinking they're not going to say yes to that. And they do. You know what I mean? So I think, I think as creators, we've just got to get slightly more confident about the money talk.

like I said, I've been in this game for like 17 years. I still struggle with it, but I just tell my, the man in my head, who's telling me. You know, to be quiet, to shut up, you know, I think you just learn to deal with it better and go through the process better. But they've come to you for a reason.

Ultimately, these

people have found me for a reason. They like my work. I'm trying to figure out how much of that good work I can give them. So if they have got [00:34:00] certainly a bigger budget, I know I can dive deep into helping them with their packaging. I can go dive deep into helping them with their social media content creation.

I can help them with animation for that budget. So, they might think, well, maybe I'll just get a logo for that, but then they realize they can get all of this for that as well. So money talk is tough for creators, but it's so essential, right? at the beginning, not kind of like after a few days of chatting, because you're

not going to get that time back unless they do say yes and they have a budget, but it's quite

a bit of a gamble.

So let's, let's move into the pricing process, because I think it sounds like you might have moved more to a

quote based process where you really, like You find out what their budget

is. You figure out

what cool package can I build

around this budget to give them the most value possible to give them the best transformation versus what they might've expected, which is the came for a logo they left with

like an incredible, like end product.

So, you've kind of moved to that, but I still think anyone listening right now, you could probably employ that sort of process,

which is like, value-based pricing. It's a lot more nuanced.

But you used to do, I don't know if [00:35:00] you still do this or not tiered pricing. And I thought that was fascinating because so many people

don't offer pricing tiers. And as a matter of fact, most creatives, oh, they're so bad at this. I'm so sorry if you're listening right now and I'm, and I'm making you feel bad, I don't mean to make you feel bad. I'm help. I'm trying to help you, but they do hourly pricing, which to me is like the worst. All you're doing is you've created a day job for yourself, which is literally the reason most of us got out of our day job is to not be in a day job anymore.

Can we talk about the tiered pricing or your thoughts around pricing and just.

Yeah. I mean, like you say, Time for Monday is not a fun game. I mean, I was in that game for a very long time. And like I

said, you don't just start off, like, coming fresh out of the blocks, Yeah. I'm just going to be a value-based designer.

She don't understand a what value you can bring

yet, or really what

that, I mean, you've just heard a buzzword or social media and then you're just trying to flag it,

you saw the Chris DOE a YouTube video and you said, oh,

I'm going to do value based pricing.

exactly. I love Chris. He's a good and by then, yeah. I mean, I bought it. This is the thing, is that it's the kind

of,[00:36:00] when people see that. there is a process behind

being able to achieve that as well. Isn't there, but what are you talking about? Fixed based pricing or structured based pricing. This

is still a thing that still works

behind the background of like my

value paced kind of budget structure thing that I do now.

I don't don't really have we call it the

MBJ combo, whatever we want to call it. But, you know, people will say, I still have an idea of how

much. I charged my logo. I know how

much I charged for logo. I know how much I charged with baker bread. I know how

much I charged registrations. I know how much to charge for packaging, depending on how many bits and pieces they're out, all the rest of it.

So what I've did for a very, very long time,

I said only up until recently was I had

a, basically a structured fixed price logo pricing process. And it wasn't necessarily based on the value to the client. It was more based on the value that I can bring to the client.

So it would constantly go up. I, up my prices by [00:37:00] small increments every single month, every single month over again. You're starting to see big changes. So like everybody listening, just start your prices by 5% right now, just do it. And I guarantee everybody will

still say yes to your prices and suddenly you've made 5% more money, but anyway, that's

another

thing.

I love that. Cause I, I always tell people, just double your prices right now, and you'll still get a bunch of yeses, but the 5% People can stomach that a lot easier than the doubling of prices. So I love that just 5% a month.

Yeah, just a tiny, tiny little bits to make a big difference over time. She's still doing the same amount of energy, same amount of work, but you're just making a little bit more money. But, the fixed based pricing structure was something that I did for a long time and it. All based on deliverables because I am so refined in my process.

I've done it. hundreds of times, hundreds of hundreds of times, I know exactly how long each element of my process takes. So I have an hours kind of discovery call with my client at the beginning of the project. I then go through my word mapping process and then go through a sketch process and then refine by sketches.

[00:38:00] And I present my idea, I'm a full ass into what I did rather than half-assed load of ideas. And what happens if the client loves that great, we signed off. If they don't we focus on what they like, what they don't like. And then I go back to this stage and I dictate it and they get four sets revisions.

I know exactly how long each part of my process takes so I can accurately go. Uh, Logo generally takes me on a really, really good day, 10 hours on a time where I have to do a little bit more effort and blah, blah, blah, blah. It could take 50 jot. I mean, so I always set myself up knowing that, you know, fully focused, this isn't like doing like a three hour day and saying, I've worked all day on it.

This is like, stockpot starts. I know exactly how long word mapping takes. I know exactly how long I need to sketch forward because I've done it so much. The ideas come quicker and quicker and quicker, which is good, obviously. But yeah, so what I would do is like, based on a certain amount of deliverables, I would create like tailored [00:39:00] packages.

So I'd have the outlets just kind of just put random numbers on it. But Melissa had a

logo package for $3,000 for that they would get a logo that

then I would have a package for $5,000, which

might be the brand identity package for that, they get logo. They get a brand guide, like a identity guidelines doc with associated type of graphy, color ways, you know, logo, usages and all the rest of it. Then there might be another package under that

for that seven and a half thousand, which would have

an animation bolt on. And they'd also get a set of social media tiles that they can use as templates to create consistent kind of content across their thing. so that worked extremely well for

me.

And it got me to this point where I am today. why I say, well, why'd you

change it? And it's just like, I'm just seeing what

works now. I'm just seeing how this new way works. I'm trying to evolve my process and trying to get bigger projects. And, for example, [00:40:00] with this structured pricing, somebody might come to me for 15 K and I've given it to them for like seven, eight.

And they're not kind of getting the very best out of me as that as I could be given to. So um, yeah, that's the kind of reason why I've changed it, but what that does is it allows me to, almost

create this kind of space for people where, I can cover a lot of basic.

You know, say if you want a logo, say you've got five K or whatever, or 4k, and you realize, well, I could, if I could spend an extra thousand to get the brand identity package or I could save a thousand and get the logo package and what it did was it actually widened my net for people's budgets, rather than just saying one package.

This is my price, that's it. They would then allow their budget, dictate what they wanted, or I can actually afford the animation as well. So I'll get that. It's me up front saying this is how much it costs. Cause I think that's what clients do. Like they've come to me.[00:41:00]

their first question is like, How much, how much does it cost to work with you? Jarred I made, and like I said, now I do develop that conversation a bit more and jump on a call with them to find out what they need. But before it was like, here you go, this is it. if you can afford it, great.

If you come, don't worry. You know? And that's, that was my way, God, I was getting like,

800 to a thousand inquiries a year, which is ridiculous. When I, say like 70% of them have five bucks, you know, or 50 bucks or a hundred bucks,

so it's

just trying to figure out what way works for you and that, so the pricing structure does really work. I think in some ways.

, I said that thing that I learned from or before about creating a flow of consistent

leads, then monetizing that flow and then adding

friction, most people, like I did the math, it's like 75 to 85. Inquiries per

month that you you've been getting. And I'll say like, most people listening right now don't even have

A third of that much. Probably

not even a 10th of that for a lot of people. So like work on some of these other things that James was [00:42:00] talking about at the beginning of this of this interview, where like he's built his digital footprint to bring in this sort of flow into his business so

that he has the

luxury cherry picking the ones he really

wants and turning down the ones that

he doesn't want to work with.

It doesn't work within his budget, or it's not a good fit for him. we always bring this back to relationships or romantic relationships on this podcast. But so you're not that desperate weirdo sending like text after text to the one person you'd want on that, one day with they weren't filling it.

But you're so desperate that you're just like bugging them on social media. And they're like telling your friends about how creepy you are now, your reputation's ruined. Like you don't want to be that person. You want to have a really good flow of in our case leads. And we're not going to go to the romantic equivalent of that, but like, see what I'm saying here?

I do want to talk about a topic that came up. It wasn't in my original outline, James, but this is one that came up looking at your budgets, your pricing. And this is a really, a really important thing for people to understand is that you're not working with broke clients. working with a lot of people with good budgets, which I think are mostly businesses.

And that brings us to the question again, I got the neon sign behind me that says it takes more than passion. A lot of people are like, I'm not passionate about working with businesses. I'm a [00:43:00] logo designer. And I want to work with bands. I want to make those, you know, there's death metal logos that look like all jumbled and messy.

It's like, they want to make logos like that. That's what I'm passionate about. But they don't think the fact that those are, those bands have A hundred dollars for the logo. Like how do you approach that sort of thing of, I want to work with the people that I'm passionate about.

yeah, I think it's, fru um, perseverance and patience, you give yourself the ability to become a bit more picky. in the beginning of my career, I suggest to ever face, even if I couldn't do it.

So this was before I niched down into logo design, I was like, people would come to me and say, can you do a mural for my shop? And I'll go, yeah, I've never done it before, but I'll, I'm going to figure out how to do it. Because I realized very luckily through those quite early on that. It's more important to pay my bills and keep the lights on and, have some money to be able to pay for food than it is for me to sit here and go, well, I'm not going to do that mural because it's Not what I do.

you know, so in the beginning [00:44:00] I was very much like every client is a lead, so I'm going to do whatever that I need to do to get them in the door as. My theory is that once that tights in the door, they might introduce me to another client or two clients, or I did a good job for them.

And then they told their mate, so over a decade, it was yesterday at the thing. can you build an app? Yes. can you do a magazine for me? Yes. You know, can you do a mule? Yes. And as I said, if I didn't know how to do it, I'd figure it out. obviously my business partner Ady like, who works at baby giant with me, you know, I've kind of now kind of got off on me by James and a little bit of a tangent here, but between us, we would just figure out, you know, we weren't fussy.

We did work that we hate it, but it paid the bills. It kept the lights on, get us through year one, year, two, year three, year four, suddenly. We were starting to get more projects, better paying clients, bigger budgets around work that we did, [00:45:00] like doing a little bit more. Don't get me wrong. We still have to do some stuff we did like to do, but the ratio was changing.

You know what I mean? So it wasn't like for an average stuff all the time. and start to be slightly more exciting, slightly bigger budgets, you know? And over time, like I said, like baby judge here, 12 now. obviously that was five years or so in the agency I, before I started baby giant. But I think what you've got to do as a designer in the early stages is survive.

And then once you've gone through the survive stage and you get to, and you put the time and. know, I hate to rhyme, but you start to thrive. You know, when you're thriving, when you've got a good flow of projects coming in, I just say that some people will come to me and they'll give me their brief and they'll tell me that project.

And I'm like that just doesn't, they've got the budget, but I'm just not that doesn't really, I tend to think I can let logo wise, turn my hand to anything. But if it's like, if I don't really learn with them personally or. You [00:46:00] know, they're like, when I've got this cool design, can you just make it for me?

I'll pay you whatever you want. I'm like, it's just not that doesn't really excite me. Do I to meet and you know, maybe go somewhere else. So I think, over time the, you get given the choice to kind of say no

to stuff that you don't want to do, which allows you to do more stuff, what you do want to do.

So what I would say also

though, is when we talk about niching is don't niche yourself into a corner. Like you said, I only want to do logos

for heavy metal bands

or whatever, which is great. you know, that's, that's a wonderful thing that you want to do. but my theory is

especially if you're a logo So you got remember that logo design is a niche by itself. logo designed for heavy metal bands is a niche within a niche. you know so what you're doing is, your client base is going you know, every time You niche down, you know, you're probably niching yourself into a corner, and what happens is let's take COVID for example, like if you were a logo designer for the hospitality trade [00:47:00] over the last three years, you would have been

absolutely Exactly. Yeah. So you've got to buy theory is if you are logo design, you should be able to take that skill and do that for anybody. Yes. There might be some stuff that you don't like as much as you did, that'd be projects. You don't like as much as other projects, but your job is to survive This is a career, you've got to make money. This is a business, ultimately, isn't it. So you've got to kind of have a bit of a fine line, a bit of a moral line. Survival and

thriving and all the rest of it, I think personally anyway, but you know, my point isn't always right.

No, I love your point of this. So like, just to kind of bring it all back to that, it

seems like this is the mantra of this episode, which is create flow, monetize, flow, add friction when you're in their survival mode, it's all about creating a flow of leads, any sort of

lead. And you're just saying, yes, you're in yes.

Mode to those people. that's the monetized flow part. You're just saying you're monetizing, whatever you can get. And that's what you.

did for a while, James. And

then as you got bigger and

bigger, over time. And, And a lot of blood, sweat, and tears and doing [00:48:00] projects that. were bill paying work that you weren't necessarily passionate about.

Only once you reached the point where you had enough leads coming in Now that you're

at like 70, 80 a month, you can say. I can start adding a lot of friction to this. Now I can start turning down certain types of work.

I don't do murals. I don't do websites. You have an agency for that, whatever. And maybe can get into that a little bit, but only then do I say like. oh, I'm only doing logos and I can start being selective of the types of clients that I work with And it all stems, honestly, from how quickly can you get to a sustainable place as a designer or a freelancer in general, if you're working with broke metal bands, going back to

that, like death metal logo burnt leather,

Fi kind of thing. If that's all you do, like it's going to take hundreds of clients to make a living. Whereas if you're doing something in more of the corporate space or, or businesses with actual

budget, All of a

sudden, I

only need a few of those projects. Like you

said, you were giving out numbers, 40, $50,000 projects. like I only need water,

two of those to survive. And that allows me to then do whatever the

hell I want. If I want to grow my business more great. If I want to be more passion focused, if I want to do something for a

cause [00:49:00] I have that freedom, but I don't have that If I don't have that core of high budget projects to work with.

And that takes clients with actual budgets who need usually businesses of some sort

to support them so

that they have those budgets.

I'll say one thing I kind of want to and I know we are obviously business it career and everything is super important, but it's really important for every all of us individually as well is

to understand what success looks for us. example, if success for you is making, 20, 30 grand a year, having your weekends going on lovely holidays, That's wonderful, you know, do everything you can possibly do to achieve that You know, don't get clouded by, you need to be making seven fakers or you need to be busted 18 hour days, or, if you're not reading 25 books a week, you're stupid. you know, I think we get into constantly, so much noise. So. My definition of success as being a very best I can be.

So I've pushed myself very hard. I'm trying to see what's [00:50:00] possible for me, but I also work, stupid amount of hours. You know what I mean? I, wish I had more time off, you know, but That's that's what I love. I love this place I'm in and I love trying to explore, but you know, I think if you, if you are happy, bust in some six hour days making good money, you know, and that's, that's what success is for you do that I know you don't have to be me you know, you don't have to Brian, You know, I think it's, I really want to kind of get that across, yes. Money and business and careers is super important, but. the definition of what success means is different for everybody as well. So that's why I think plans are so important, Like, what is your plan? Who do you want to be? What do you want to learn each year? make that happen? don't just sit on your ass and around and then complain about it. put a stake in the ground and become whatever you can become. but.

like I said, I just want to before I forgot it, it's like, we're talking about big monies.

You know, I personally do quite well. The agency does quite well, but that's me. That's my drive. That's [00:51:00] my success. That's what success means for me is somebody else might be different for Brian. It might be different.

So Focusing on yourself super important to actually become who you want to become as well.

And you actually said that at The gate of the interview with setting a vision

for yourself so that you can filter everything through that. it's important to have two different visions because you have your

vision for your personal life. What do you want your lifestyle to

look like? And then you build business vision on

top of

that.

And if you don't have either of those, then.

Listen to this podcast, you're going to be the type of person

that goes off over every episode and says, I'm gonna go do this thing. Oh, that sounds great. I'm gonna go to that thing. I'm gonna, you have entrepreneur ADHD,

which is a thing that I honestly

struggle with myself, even with having these visions mapped

out in a well-documented thing.

But uh, it's something to consider at least to sit down and think through, like, what do I want my life to look

like? And then what does my business need to look like in order to fit that life? and then building the things that me and James have talked about in this episode, into your business So that you can build whatever success is for you.

Because again, it's not all about money, but we're called the six-figure creative

podcast, but it's about building the life that you want for yourself. And money is a big part of that. And you know, I'd

rather make [00:52:00] money from my creativity than from a day job. but yeah,

you make A really good point there.

one more thing on my list That I wanted to talk about. I have so much other

stuff we haven't got even got to but you

mentioned having a process for client referrals I feel like I'd be letting our audience down, not to hear what that

process is because I talked to people all the time.

Like what is your process

for client acquisition? If you're not a hundred percent booked

up with your ideal client and turning down

projects left and right. And cherry picking the ones You

want, then it's your duty to do client acquisition work until referrals are bringing enough

work in for you to turn everything down.

And James, you've got to the point where with your digital footprint and your client referrals, you're able to keep yourself a hundred percent booked up beyond capacity and you can

turn down proxies, left and right. and a lot of people that don't have a referral process in place to then eventually build that big referral

pool.

So for our audience, Like What can they do

to start getting more referrals from the clients that they work with aside from obviously being good at what you do, which is a thing that people don't think about. Like, I can't get referrals. It's probably because they're not very good. So

let's, let's just assume they're great at what they do.

What's the

process for client referrals?

Yeah, [00:53:00] So I think, this year I think we're going to do probably close to 30 to 35 projects. I think 40% of those are from referrals.

So plants I've worked for that have given my name to other people. So let's talk about why those are good to start off with, I suppose referral was really good because

there's no pitching. they

basically know the work I've already broken that trust barrier. So they, they got the trust from their mate.

So basically it's just a very simple conversation of when you can start. That's why I love

referrals because there's no fluff. It's that I've seen your work. If they trust you, I trust you.

And they already even have a good idea of budget too,

yeah,

So I mean, if somebody comes. to me now and says, well, you worked with my mate five years ago.

They're going to be at a bit of a shock. you know, if they came back here within a year, you know, you're not going to be any crazy different, whatever, but yeah. So referrals are

really, really good because it's

saves any of that. FATF any of that Betty tickling.

I love British terms. So much belly tech. [00:54:00]

Just imagine a dog lying down to give it a tick or try to make it happen.

That's what I like to call it, but so let's stop sending you that. So the way you can do that is don't know, if it's the same for everybody, but I treat all of my clients. Like they're not, not they're my friends, basically. They are not a monetary transaction.

They are my friend. I partner with them on their work, through my process. I don't dictate creativity. They, control the creativity. I say, you know, you've come to me. This is the way We should go. If they ever have any thoughts, insight feedback, I'm not the designer to go. That's not a politics may I'm right.

You're wrong. Do you know what I mean? I'm like, okay, that? makes sense. Let me explore it. So I partner with.

my clients rather than, you know, do work for them. And I think what, that does along with treating them with respect, doing good work, being on time you know, being friendly, you know, going above and beyond for them the way I look at it is [00:55:00] my clients pay me to advertise myself.

they pay me to do a job, which I can then use as an advertising tool to get more work. They are paying me to advertise myself. So I do. The best possible work I can do obviously to a point go above and beyond, you know, you don't want to be doing crazy loads of free stuff for the sake of it, but you know, because obviously you ended up losing money.

But always, like I said, treating them with a huge amount of respect and allowing them to be a controlled part of the process. I think what this does is it allows people to feel very comfortable, obviously if you're working with business owners, business owners have friends who are business owners

so we all talk, we all have groups of people and we are so, I'm a big believer in. people may forget a product, or something they buy, but they won't forget an experience. Yeah. And I think there's not enough time and energy put into making the experience of working [00:56:00] with you.

That is something that all designers should be doing. It's like, when people work with me, I want to make it the best experience they've ever had working with a creative, very, hands-on very friendly, always over deliver. and also once the project's finished, there is a process of like, three months later, you know, how are you getting, um, would you mind leaving me a testimonial?

is there anything I can do to help ultimately, there's two things that can do is a put you back in your client's mind. get you more work. And it also just adds to that experience of like, you know, this guy actually totally cares and there's a lot of burn and churn.

Like you mentioned a few of them, five nice nine designs and the door, money out the door. if you want to charge good money, you have to create an experience for your clients. Um, from the moment they reach out to you to the moment you give them the final files and they pay their final deposit, make it everything seamless.

And I guarantee [00:57:00] the next time they're around their mates and their mates go, oh, I'm starting up this company. They'll go, go to made by JS for your brand, Brandon you automate. And that happens. Concentrate on experience. and it won't happen overnight, but suddenly you got all this work and all your clients become little marketing assets for you.

They're in a little gathering over here, they're in a little chat with their mates over here. They're on a holiday with their in-laws, you know, suddenly that's all your business. Your name gets mentioned because you were fun to work with you did great work. You're a nice guy. You're a nice girl.

You're a good human. and they'll refer you. So yeah, it seems simple. It's not, but over time compound effects and all that.

Yeah. So sites like Fiverr, they're really good on facilitating a transaction, I've never formed a relationship with anyone I've hired off Fiverr before. And I have hired people on Fiverr before for little little nickel and dime projects, like editing something or something that's like technical work.

But what you said is really important, they may forget the product or the [00:58:00] project, but they'll never forget the way you, made them feel if you leave a really good impression on them, that will last for a long time.

And when they have those get togethers with their friends, the people that you want to work, there's other people you want to work with. Assuming you work with people that you want to work with. They always hang out with other people that you want to work with. They'll start to throw your name in the, in the hat when it comes time for a project to come up.

So, think this is a good place to wrap up here because like we're, we're, we're past the hour here at this point, and I know it's the end of the day for you. And you're like, man, I gotta, I gotta get off and get some, get a beer. I don't know what you do after work

we can always do, um, episode two. MBJ Brian, at a later

stage. Anyway, I think we've only just scraped the surface of what's going on

I know. I don't, like I said, I still got like six or seven bullet points on my outline here that we didn't even get to touch here, but, we'll have to have you back on the show, but where can people go to connect with you, learn more from you, whatever you want, where do you want to our audience?

Right.

ultimately the beautiful thing now is you've typed in, made by James onto the OTT that onto Google yet, am I, my bed and face comes up. So, it's type in me by James I'm at [00:59:00] mayb may.by dot James on Instagram and maple James on Pinterest. And there's also my website, the made by james.com.

And every week I'm dropping free value of my newsletter. So we're going to be taught. We talked about newsletters, get online and I can teach you how to build a newsletter. How about that? Win-win with.

that's great. Yeah. So, if you go to our, show notes for this episode, by going to six-figure creative.com/ 2 0 4, we'll have links to all of James's, Instagram website, everything, and you can get to it from there if all else fails. So thanks so much for coming on here.

It's been a blast or not. I'll tell you what, that hour and 20 minutes, but quick minute, super quick.

Yeah, it did. It did, man.