- Why copywriting is incredibly important for your website's conversion rate
- Common copywriting mistakes on freelance websites
- Making yourself shine to stand out from your competition
- Turning testimonials into copy for your website
- Discovering why clients come to you
- Reasons to avoid stuffy, corporate copywriting
- How to resuscitate your about page
- Using stories to sell your services
- Staying current on copywriting trends
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- What was going on with ___ before we started working together?
- What was the moment or struggle you had that made you come to me?
- What was it like working with me? Don’t hold back
- How do you feel about the “Copy” when you first saw it vs. now – what will it do for you?
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People and Companies
[00:00:00] Brian: Hello and welcome to the six Figure Creative podcast. I am your host Brian Hood, and if this is your first time listening to the show today, you're awesome.
[00:00:06] Brian: Thanks for listening. The show is for creative freelancers who wanna earn more and they don't wanna sell their souls, to do so. if that sounds like you, you're in the right place and I think you've picked a really good episode to try for your first one, because today's episode we're covering something that most freelancers struggle with immensely, and that is copywriting copywriting can be anything from social captions to your website, to your about page, to, anywhere you were communicating with words, emails you send out Copywriting is something that touches every single part of your business. And unless you are a copywriter, this is probably something you haven't had much experience with and many freelancers, many creatives in general, this is something they really struggle with. our guest today who is dearly a monk.
[00:00:44] Brian: I wanted to have her come on the show today, just talk through how to turn your website into a lead generation machine, and if you don't feel like your website is a lead generation machine, meaning.
[00:00:52] Brian: People come to your website, strangers or people that know of you or might know you, do they actually take the next step towards working with you? Do they become a lead? if they don't do that, [00:01:00] especially at the percentages that you want to happen, this episode is absolutely for you.
[00:01:03] Brian: She breaks down. what mistakes are we making? What sort of frameworks can we use? she also talks about a really clever way to capture really good testimonials from your clients that is not just saying, Hey, can you gimme a testimonial? and then use those testimonials to actually write good copy for your website.
[00:01:17] Brian: getting people to take an action on your website. That's her specialty.
[00:01:20] Brian: And she's worked with a lot of clients over the years, done some really cool success stories. And she was actually recommended from a past guest, Joanna Galvao. on the episode
[00:01:27] Brian: two hundred and thirty eight. But Delia helps us not just write copy that converts, but doing it in a way that is in our own voices and matches with our own ethics And she has some really clever ways to get things out of her head and onto paper. So I'm excited for you on this episode. This is something that I don't get to really nerd out much on with people, and I love talking to copywriters because, Not only are they freelancers just like you and me, so they understand the problems and challenges that we all face as freelancers and creatives, but they're also a specialist in the skill that you struggle with immensely, which [00:02:00] is copywriting.
[00:02:00] Brian: so they understand both sides of the equation, both as a freelancer and as a copywriter. So without further delay, here is my conversation with Delia Monk. Delia, thank you so much for coming on the show today.
[00:02:09] Delia: Thank you. Thank you for having me,
[00:02:11] Delia: Brian
[00:02:12] Brian: when our guest Joanna Galeo recommended you to come on the show which, for those who listen to episode, 238, how one cold email resulted in $60,000 of referral work. What's funny is that episode was actually referring to you, Delia, you were the one that sent the cold email to Joanna and Joanna mentioned that briefly and talk through it, but the rest of the episode was actually not even talking about that.
[00:02:31] Brian: So, Either way, go back and list that interview cuz it's a wonderful interview and you and Joanna are actually starting a podcast together and recommended you come on the show and I had to have you on the show because you're a copywriter. we'll talk about that a little bit, but copywriting is one of the biggest struggles I think our audience has as creatives.
[00:02:46] Brian: Unless you're a copywriter, if you struggle with copywriting and you're a copywriter, then you need to fix your creative skills before you about anything else. But I just had to have you on to talk through a couple things, and I think the main topic we're gonna talk about today is turning your website into a lead generation machine, which we'll [00:03:00] talk all about that today.
[00:03:01] Brian: But before we get into that Delia, could you tell our audience a little bit more about you, what you typically do and what kind of clients you typically work with?
[00:03:08] Delia: Yeah, sure. So I'm a website and sales copywriter. I work mainly with creatives, consultants, service providers, I do some emails and sales pages, but it's websites that really set me alive. I get very excited about headlines, and I'm a self confessed word geek.
[00:03:24] Brian: Because your background is in journalism, right?
[00:03:26] Delia: Yeah, that's right. So I used to be a political journalist when I'd had enough of chasing politicians around the streets I kind of called it a day and, set up as a, a
[00:03:33] Delia: copywriter.
[00:03:34] Brian: So before we get into the topic today, I really want to, get your thoughts on something, I have my own thoughts on this cause I see this all the time.
[00:03:39] Brian: But what are some common mistakes that you see creatives make with their copy? And maybe some of these will be addressed through our conversation today, but I really wanna start off on mistakes first because if you're listening right now and you have a website and you're a creative, which is, if you're listening to the show, that is probably you.
[00:03:53] Brian: If, you're not a creative, I dunno why you listen to the show, but thank you. You probably are making mistakes on your website. I can almost guarantee it. And [00:04:00] I want to maybe talk through some of these today, Delia, that we can start addressing that are hurting your conversions. the opposite of a lead generation website is a lead repelling website,
[00:04:08] Brian: And I feel like so many websites that I've seen in our community are repelling leads instead of attracting them. So, What have you seen in your own experience that is like ruining conversions on websites?
[00:04:16] Delia: Yeah, the biggest thing I see is creatives relying solely on images. So you get onto these websites and there's just beautiful images, but I'm just like, What are they actually offering? Are they a photographer? Are they a model? Are they a designer? And I think the danger when you just rely on images is that it's totally up from interpretation.
[00:04:37] Delia: And what's worse is if someone else is looking at that image and they're like, oh, I don't really like that, they might bounce. Whereas if you use words to say why that image was great for that specific talent audience, and perhaps what results that image got or that design got, that's when your website will start to convert. So that's the biggest mistake I see is beautiful images that kind of means [00:05:00] subtle to someone who's got maybe six tabs open.
[00:05:02] Brian: every single photographer website on Earth it's just a grid of images and it's your entire portfolio. But if you're a videographer, you're typically just as guilty as this. You just have videos on your site, you're not really using words.
[00:05:11] Brian: And then in my background in audio, a lot of people have their portfolio on their website and very minimal words, or they just have what I call vanilla copywriting. Either way you're falling into, I guess the lie that people fall into with that is a picture's worth a thousand words it's actually the complete opposite when it comes to conversion.
[00:05:26] Brian: you're trying to turn your website into a, lead generation machine, a thousand words is worth a thousand dollars. But a picture's worth nothing. ,
[00:05:32] Delia: so I was writing a website for an interior designer and as part of my research process, I researched so many interior designer websites and all of them just had really pretty bathroom pictures and really pretty lounge pictures. But if that's not to my taste, then I'm just gonna look at that and be like, oh no.
[00:05:49] Delia: and I just realized like there's so many creatives that don't use words, but yet just putting a few words with those picture, you will help connect the dots so there's nothing left in interpretation.
[00:05:59] Brian: Is there anything else that you [00:06:00] see besides just focusing on images or is there anything else that you see that is crushing conversion rates on websites for creatives,
[00:06:05] Delia: Yeah, so the other thing I see a lot of is people not talking to the reader in the first person. So it's they're this or they're that. But the most powerful word that you've got in copy is three letters long, and it is the word you. And honestly, if you're listening to this right now and you just wanna make one change to your website, just go and start every single sentence with the word you it just draws the reader in.
[00:06:31] Delia: it's magnetic and I just see lots and lots of long sentences or nothing. And none of it is directly talking to the reader.
[00:06:39] Brian: so,
[00:06:39] Brian: So far the stakes are images only. We're just video. We're just audio. If you're in the audio space, You said they're addressing, they, the group, everyone You're talking to a general audience on your website versus a specific individual that you're addressing with you and your problems and your needs and your desires.
[00:06:55] Brian: a lot of websites that I see, they have an attempted copywriting and they might even follow some of the best practices [00:07:00] as far as what I call the template of the internet, which is like headline, sub-headline, call to action.
[00:07:04] Brian: That is the template of the internet. Follow that or die in my opinion, . If you don't wanna follow that, then you might, struggle. , but the copy's really weak. They have what I call vanilla copywriting. It is just to check the box that they have these elements on their website.
[00:07:15] Brian: So let's talk through what we can do to turn your website into a lead generation machine. I think this is a good transition point to talk through what you do with a typical client or someone that comes to you that has either just images and no copy or really bad vanilla copying on their site.
[00:07:27] Delia: vanilla copywriting, ouch. Oh, if anyone ever said that about my copy, like a little bit of my soul would just die . So I think that the first thing to do, I know the sounds a bit boring, but it's research, right? You don't wanna just open up blank page and start writing cuz it's gonna make you feel rubbish.
[00:07:47] Delia: You're not gonna know what to say. So the first thing you need to do, the first step in all of my process with my clients is research. What does that mean? Look at all your testimonials. What are your best customers saying about you? [00:08:00] How do they describe you? the best copywriters in the world are never starting with a blank page.
[00:08:04] Delia: They're starting with testimonials. What do your customers say about you? And then the other thing to do Do like a creative mind map about you? What's your personality? What words do you love to use? What sets you alive? What's your favorite food? Just get really creative. Get really out the box because you are such a big part of your brand.
[00:08:25] Delia: And if we wanna stay away from vanilla, you need to shine. Like, So when I did that for my brand, just to give you an example, I went into my creative closet and I just was like brainstorming, okay, I love horses, I love sunshine, I love this, I love that. And I was like, huh, sunshine. So if you look at my website, it's like full of sunshine PS and I want it to have bright and energy.
[00:08:45] Delia: And so I found that theme by thinking about stuff that I. I also love wine, so I could have gone down that road, but , I went for sunshine. I think when it comes to like personality infused copy, it's [00:09:00] so important because it's what makes you stand out. Anyone can say, I do X, Y, and Z C to A, yes, that's important, but what's gonna make you stand out is your personality.
[00:09:11] Delia: And I think that people sometimes are afraid to just show up unapologetically as themselves, but it is so important. That is what sells. It's like imagine going into a pub and you are chatting to five different people and somebody really makes you giggle. Or someone is just unashamedly enthusiastic about horses.
[00:09:30] Delia: You go home, what do you remember? You remember that joke. You remember that person that had some kind of weird obsession with something. And we want a copy to do that. Talk in your copy, like you would talk to your friends in the
[00:09:41] Delia: pub.
[00:09:41] Brian: there's a lot to take out of just that little bit right there. and you talk about the love for horses and I've, I've just had like a long. Going joke with my wife I don't know why I'm sharing this, but I am, it's whatever, I want to be so rich that I can have a, room in my house dedicated to horse stuff.
[00:09:54] Brian: And anytime I see a horse related thing, I just wanna say, oh good for the horse room with my wife. It's [00:10:00] just for years I've been saying that to her. And it's mostly a joke. I don't really want a horse room, but I just love that, that's a personality trait that she had. You also mentioned that you love sunshine.
[00:10:07] Brian: And I wanna tell our audience, deli's not joking about that. Like she has it all over her website, the Sunshine thing, but she also moved from cloud of UK to Barcelona, which is I don't know how many days a year Barcelona gets sunshine, but it's probably in the 300 s is my best guess.
[00:10:19] Brian: Alright, so let's back up a little bit. You said two things, research and create a mind map. Let's dive into both of these. The first thing I wanna talk about is the research side of writing copy, cuz the research side appeals to your, ideal client, which is really important. And the mind map just finding your own personality to infuse in your website is what turns you from vanilla to some like good flavor. vanilla's not bad. a lot of people love vanilla ice cream, but it's, I can get it anywhere. if you wanna be a commoditized service and a commoditized freelancer where I can just go pick and choose you and you're a but in the seat there's nothing special about you, then ignore this.
[00:10:48] Brian: But if you wanna infuse your personality on your website, that's how you get my favorite flavor of ice cream, which is brown butter Almond Brittle, which you can only get at Jenny's ice cream, which is right down the street from our house here. that's what I want for our audience is to be that [00:11:00] brown butter almond brittle copy.
[00:11:02] Brian: That's a mouth floor right there. So let's get into this first research. with testimonials. What are you typically looking for in testimonials and how do you translate that to copy for your.
[00:11:10] Delia: Great question. So you're looking for about three or four things. The first thing you're looking for is what was the state that they were in before they started working with you? guess another point that we can talk about afterwards is what kind of questions should you be asking to get good testimonials?
[00:11:26] Delia: But anyway, you're looking for, what state were they in before they came to you? So a good question to ask for that would be what was going on in your life before, you found, and the reason why that's so important is because a reader who lands on that website is in that current state of mind, okay?
[00:11:40] Delia: So if somebody is talking about their struggles, their challenges, their pains, their dreams, their desires, but they haven't worked with you yet, it's actually really important. Don't cut that out because that is what a reader who also hasn't worked with you yet will connect with. So that's one really important thing.
[00:11:58] Delia: Another important thing is [00:12:00] objections. What are the big objections to working with you? Time and money are two big ones, but there might be other ones. So be listening to that in your testimonials. And also, you don't just get this good stuff in testimonials. You get this good stuff on discovery calls, on sales calls in your forms that are coming through your websites, capturing those leads.
[00:12:18] Delia: This is where you can get some really good stuff for your copy. Another thing we're looking for is benefits of working with you. And this will often just get dropped in, I loved working with so and so because X, Y, and Z and what are those becauses and how did that help them? So benefits is number three and number four, the big one is the outcome.
[00:12:36] Delia: So what was the big outcome or result of working with you? Did somebody immediately, they put their prices up online as soon as you designed their new website, did somebody feel like a million dollars when they had their new branding? And so they went, yeah, soda, I'm gonna charge.
[00:12:51] Delia: So you are looking for those four key things in your testimonials and then scattering them throughout your website. Because [00:13:00] here's the thing, copywriting is partly Psychology, and it's partly. Writing. I used to be a journalist. When I first started being a copywriter. I thought, this is easy.
[00:13:10] Delia: I know how to write stories, , but actually it's really different because it's psychology. So this is why these things are really important, because the person who's browsing your website has a struggle, has a pain, has a dream, has a desire, and wants an outcome. So if you can know what those things are and write your copy so you are hitting those points, that's when we can start to see your website converting Hiam.
[00:13:35] Brian: So just to recap that, you're looking for what was the beginning state, what sort of objections did you come across, which you'll probably find the objections more in your sales calls than anything.
[00:13:43] Brian: Number three is benefits of working with you, which can get from testimonials, hopefully if you're good at what you do. And then number four is like an outcome or result. And no matter what you do, you are working towards an outcome. And This kinda goes back to another topic that I've mentioned a bunch on this podcast I'm not gonna get into today.
[00:13:56] Brian: But the smaller piece of the pie that you have to do with the overall [00:14:00] outcome, the harder it is to charge a significant amount of money. And the bigger piece that you have to do with the, end outcome that your client wants, the more you can charge. So it's better to find more ways to get people to their ideal outcome than just that one specific thing that you love to do.
[00:14:13] Brian: I just love mastering audio or I just love, writing headlines for my client's websites. copywriting is more than just a headline, and I'm sure Daley would agree with me. There's more to getting someone to the end goal there. So understanding the outcome and the result that they want and shaping everything you say on your website, everything that you do as a service provider around getting that person to the outcome.
[00:14:31] Brian: Very important stuff. So you mentioned something briefly before we get into the mind map and getting your own personality and fusing your website. You said, getting good testimonials, there's some questions you can ask around that to, get good testimonials that are useful for both turning strangers into clients on the internet.
[00:14:44] Brian: So obviously good testimonials for your website and for getting good testimonials that you can pull information like this to then put onto your website's copy. One of the questions you asked was what was going on with blank before you started working with me? So like, what was going on with your music before you started working with me?
[00:14:58] Brian: Or how was your website converting before [00:15:00] working with me? , that's, one that would be specific for you, Delia, but what other kind of questions can we ask our clients after we're done working with them to get good testimonials?
[00:15:07] Delia: I think this is really key point for two reasons. One is that testimonials should be everywhere on your website. Just going back to like mistakes. I see. testimonials are the most powerful copy. So get them everywhere on your website. So that's one reason. And the second reason they're so important is cuz they will help you write your copy so you can actually use the words and phrases that you are seeing in your testimonials to actually help you write your copy.
[00:15:29] Delia: So in terms of the questions, let me tell you the questions that I ask for my process if that would be helpful. So I do this in like a form that you could do like a type form or I use like former Lou those kind of questionnaire surveys. So my first question is cast your mind back to before we work together.
[00:15:45] Delia: Are you there yet? Okay, great. What was the moment or trigger that made you want to work with a copywriter? What struggles were you experiencing?
[00:15:53] Brian: Obviously Worded by a copywriter. some wordsmithing in there.
[00:15:57] Delia: I like to set the scene, like get back into that moment [00:16:00] this might be six, 12 months down the line, depending on how big the project is. So you're asking them to get into that state. then I say, what convinced you that I was the right copywriter for you?
[00:16:10] Delia: Did you have any doubts, hesitations, or concerns about working with me? Next question I ask, what was it like working with me? Don't hold back. I can take it . And one thing I say at the beginning of this questionnaire is there's no wrong answers and just brain dump because that's when you get your best juice.
[00:16:28] Delia: And I don't mean your best juice for necessarily the testimony of on your website, but the juice for helping you figure out what I'd like to call your sunshine factor. What makes you more brilliant, more radiant, more fabulous than anyone else? And this is when you get some really good little nuggets of wisdom coming up in these answers.
[00:16:46] Delia: So then I ask, how do you feel about the copy when you first saw it, and now, and what do you hope it will do for you? Because normally at this point, they're not able to say to me like, oh, we've increased our conversions by X amount. We've increased our [00:17:00] revenue by X amount. It's too early. So I tend to like to go back to my customers, my clients, so six months later to try and get that more specific.
[00:17:07] Delia: So this is more of a feeling question. And then the last question is I love to share the testimonials of my happy customers. Would that be okay? If so, please share your, name, job title, and business, because you are not actually doing this just to get the testimonial.
[00:17:21] Delia: You're doing this as your research date as well imagine you start doing this tomorrow and you do it, with all your customers. In a year's time. You're gonna have amazing data and so when you're looking to rebrand or when you're looking to rewrite your website or something, you can cool up all these answers and it will really help you.
[00:17:37] Brian: So you're not just saying, Hey, can you lead me a testimonial, which is what 99.9% of freelancers do when they're done with the project? I'm gonna guess that you are positioning this as a questionnaire or a survey or some sort of feedback after the project's done.
[00:17:49] Brian: Is that what I'm gathering here? This is like a feedback questionnaire.
[00:17:52] Delia: Absolutely. And so by that point you've got a good working relationship with them. So you try to incentivize them by saying, it means so much to [00:18:00] me. Sometimes I make a joke and I'm like, as a solo business owner, I've got no boss kicking me into shape.
[00:18:04] Delia: Please help me give me that feedback. So one thing I've started to do more recently, we're always gonna have those super busy clients that don't fill out this form. And I was starting to get a bit frustrated that I'd worked with some really big names, some people I wanted to plaster all over my website and they weren't answering my very thoughtfully crafted six questions, So what I tend to do as a follow up and then if I don't get anything from that, what I then do is I, while I'm working on a project with somebody, I collect all the feedback as I go. I screenshot all the feedback that they will give me on my, Figma files. Cuz I write my copy and Figma, so I'll be like screenshotting that.
[00:18:45] Delia: I will screenshot any emails I'm getting. When we are doing discovery calls and stuff or if I'm doing any feedback calls, I'm always recording and then I jot that down and I basically create little file on each person. Then what I do is if I haven't fed up my [00:19:00] feedback form, I go back to them and say, Hey, I've crafted this feedback.
[00:19:03] Delia: Based on these things that you said to me at the time, are you okay for me to use that? that's something I'll do with clients that are really, really busy. Because the other thing that is so important on your website, if you work with big names, you want them center on the prime real estate. So, If someone's not giving you feedback and you're desperate to tell the world that you've, worked with them, don't be afraid to push and get it and make their life easy. Like nine times out of 10 they've said to me, oh gosh, I'm so glad you've done that. you know, especially cuz I'm a copywriter, sometimes people worry about what to say.
[00:19:33] Delia: And then the final thing I would say is something I've done as well is interviews. So I do this for my clients. So let's say, Brian, I'm writing your website tomorrow. Part of my research process. It's not just reading your testimonials, but I would actually interview your best customers. And I would ask them these kind of similar questions to what we've just mentioned.
[00:19:53] Delia: But I would go like, way deeper. And that is amazing. And I've actually done it a few [00:20:00] times for myself. for example, with Joanna Gabo, who we just mentioned was on the podcast recently. I've worked on so many projects with her that I was like, Hey Joanna, would you be happy to do an interview with somebody about these projects instead of filling out this form?
[00:20:13] Delia: And she was like, absolutely, I'd be happy to. And I just got a fellow copywriter of mine and she set up the call for 30 minutes and I got so many killer testimonials from Joanna,
[00:20:23] Brian: That's brilliant. So I was looking at these questions and my mind goes to, this is very similar to how I've structured, case study interviews after like I have a big win from somebody that I work with, or like they've experienced some big thing. I've asked similar questions in like a 15, 20 minute kind of case study interview.
[00:20:37] Brian: So I see this being really good for, just doing case study interviews as well. But I love, I love positioning this as just a feedback form aside from the frustrating, really busy clients that you work with who probably have the biggest budgets, , which are wonderful.
[00:20:50] Brian: Aside from those, you probably get a pretty high percentage of your clients to fill out the form. what does your gut say as far as the percentage that our audience could probably, hopefully expect to get if they [00:21:00] position this correctly as Hey, I'm really looking for feedback and I would love for you to fill out this four question, five question form if you get a chance, it would mean the world to me.
[00:21:07] Brian: what kind of percentage of people do you see filling this out?
[00:21:09] Delia: I think it really depends on the type of clients that you've got, like you said about the higher paying clients, having less time to fill out these forms. So when I first started, I would say that I was getting like 80% filling it out. And as I've progressed and working with, busier people, people that are paying more.
[00:21:27] Delia: I've probably seen that go down a bit, maybe about 66, 70%. But then now with my follow up, I'd say getting another 10%. And then I've never had anyone not sign off feedback that I've, in the end put forward to them. So finally, a hundred
[00:21:43] Delia: percent
[00:21:44] Brian: Nice. All right. So I love these. So we got these questions we'll have these questions on the show notes page. If you go to six figure creative.com/ 2 42, we'll have these question, this questions. , that's a good word. Testimonials on the website.
[00:21:56] Brian: That was a total slip, but it works.
[00:21:58] Delia: I think there's a copywriter
[00:21:59] Delia: [00:22:00] within you.
[00:22:00] Brian: that's one of my strengths as a, freelancer, as a creative is my copywriting, but I'm no copywriter, that's for sure. let's shift to the mind map you mentioned or just infusing your own personality into this, this is how you go from like everyone else.
[00:22:12] Brian: Another, copycat vanilla, Lance. Where you're getting the same rates are less than everyone else, and you don't have any differentiating factors to now you are standing out from the crowd. You have a horse room in your house, , or you have sunshine over your website, you said something about a mind map, which I love.
[00:22:28] Brian: Mind maps, I love using these as brainstorming exercises between mind maps and just opening up a note file and just brain dumping a bunch of bullet points. Those are two amazing ways to get tons of stuff outta my brain. What kind of things are you doing in this mind map to get your personality out of your brain onto the mind map?
[00:22:43] Delia: Yeah, so putting yourself in the hot seat and you are asking yourself questions like, okay, what do I still love doing that I loved as a child, for example? what are my favorite jobs? Why did I love them? What are five [00:23:00] things that my best friends or brothers or mom and dad would say about me?
[00:23:04] Delia: And go and ask them and write them on the My map as well. What jobs and expertise have I got? what was that brilliant at school? What am I brilliant at now? What do I hate? What do I really, really hate? And what do I really, really love? What do I stand for And what drives me mad about the industry?
[00:23:22] Delia: What do I love drinking? What do I love eating? What's my favorite color? Where do I like my to travel? And these are questions actually that I ask my clients because if you're copywriting for someone you don't know, you need to get to their brain. And it's amazing how much inspiration that can give you.
[00:23:39] Delia: And like, what's your favorite music? Because maybe you'll get some of your favorite lyrics and stuff in there and you can have fun with that. Cause that's the other thing if you have fun with your copy, people will be able to tell, people will be able to read it. Because if you have fun with it, then it'll be fun to read.
[00:23:53] Delia: enjoy it and I own it.
[00:23:54] Brian: we've got these really good questions that you, just listed out, and I wrote a bunch of these down just for myself to go through later, which I encourage, if you're listening [00:24:00] to a show like this and someone goes through these sorts of questions it's good. Just sit down and actually take action on, answering these sorts of things.
[00:24:06] Brian: But let's just say we have answers to this. What do I love doing that I still loved as a child? Or what do I still love doing that I loved as a child? I have certain things in my head that I can probably think of that, would be fun to kind of infuse into a website. how do we transition this mind map or this list of fun facts about myself into actual copy on your website. how do we blend that? And actually, as a kind of side note to this, playful versus Sirius, I know so many freelancers that would never be playful on their website. How do we even get the tone right for us?
[00:24:31] Delia: Yeah, that's a really good question. Your tone, your voice, you will decide. And one thing that I always say is, avoid corporate professional talking. I think creatives generally wouldn't necessarily always go down that way anyway, but avoid it because even if the person you are talking to is professional, let's say you are doing designs for architects or something like that, they are still a human being.
[00:24:57] Delia: They are still somebody who goes down to the [00:25:00] pub and probably likes glass of wine and a bit banter.
[00:25:03] Delia: So, keep it
[00:25:04] Delia: conversational.
[00:25:05] Brian: I have friends that own close to a hundred million dollar companies, and these people are just as immature as you and me, . They are not corporate , I'm telling you right now. So you don't have to be afraid of not sounding professional because they are not professionals when you take them outside of a work environment, I promise you.
[00:25:19] Brian: you said using you instead of, they, like when you're talking specifically to one individual, but what if you're writing from the perspective of the company, do you speak from I, me or we us? Do you speak from like the perspective of all of this?
[00:25:31] Brian: My big company, I call it big boying on your website. You're trying to look like you're a big boy when you're really not, or big. I, I really push people away from saying, we are us or we are here dedicated to whatever. are you one this, speak from first person I me speaking directly to you one person, one to one, I guess
[00:25:48] Delia: with the I versus we pick one and stick to it. So if you're an agency, we make sense. If you are a solopreneur, I make sense and, own that and don't feel any [00:26:00] shame by being I, I, I am an, I on my website and people are hiring me specifically to write their copy and, so pick one and stick with it. And then just remember it's always you before I or we instead of saying we offer. Graphic design, branding, that your love or whatever you wanna say. You can start it by saying your love, our graphic design and branding, whatever. That's just an example, but just to show you how you've got the you and the we in that.
[00:26:30] Delia: But if you flip them around so the we becomes the you, it's so much more powerful and it brings the reader in. that's one thing I would say. And I guess to like go back to your question about the voice. avoid corporate professional, blah, blah, blah, talk.
[00:26:44] Delia: If it makes you want to yarn way of writing it, then the reader is almost definitely having a snooze. And then number two I would say is Think about how you talk and maybe even record yourself and record yourself.[00:27:00] Imagining that you are talking to a friend or even linger friend, and get them to ask you a couple of questions and to talk to them.
[00:27:05] Delia: Record your voice, listen to back to it. What kind of words do you use and how long or short are your sentences? how do you sound like, how would you describe the sound of your voice? It is as simple as that. If you're writing for yourself, it's so easy. When I'm writing for other people, I have to do that, and then kind of, you know, reverse engineer it.
[00:27:26] Delia: But the most important thing is to own your voice, because then it will always be easy for you to write You want your website and all your marketing to have the same voice. You don't want your website to sound one way. And then your social media sounds another way and your emails sound another way.
[00:27:40] Delia: So how's the easiest way to avoid that is to just get to know your voice. And the other thing I would say with that as well make your sentences a little bit shorter and a little bit snappier, so you can still stick with your voice. But if you are listening to yourself and you're like, oh, wow, I'm a big fan of long sentences, , then cut them down
[00:27:58] Brian: That's me. I have so many [00:28:00] like parentheticals in my long sentences. It's awful. And I'll have, have parentheses inside of parentheses if you let me go, I will talk forever and I will write forever. And that's just how I am. I'm sorry,
[00:28:09] Delia: No judgment here. It's fine. , a good rule of thumb I find is one sentence, one thought. So you have one thought, full stop. You have another thought. Full stop. Put a ton of white space in there. the, I need to, to read easily online. We've become lazy and, and that's fine.
[00:28:30] Delia: But we need to just not have walls and walls of copy and long sentences. And by the way, I love like the brackets, I tend to think that's a great space to like, make little joke. It's like, Hey, this , you know, again, you can bring in your personality put a little joke in brackets like that,
[00:28:46] Brian: once you've made this mind map of your personality, I think at that point, when you start looking at all the answers to those questions that Delia laid out for us. I feel like there should be some sort of theme or vibe that you're putting out that you can start matching your tone on your website. And again, this [00:29:00] is how we go from vanilla to like personality driven copy, I think probably even more important when it comes to writing copy that I don't think creatives are very good at is how do you balance conversion focused copy.
[00:29:11] Brian: With the voice of a creative, especially people who are, we were joking before we even did this episode about creatives being allergic to marketing any sort of like persuasive copy, turns people off because we tend to, as creatives, undersell ourselves.
[00:29:24] Brian: We never oversell ourselves. We're so afraid of overselling or overstating anything that we understate everything. So how do we bridge this gap between our listeners here and you know who you are. If you're listening right now, you know, this is you. If this isn't you, then you can tune out of this part.
[00:29:36] Brian: But how do we bridge that gap between people who are just habitually underselling themselves with actually writing good copy that's persuasive and gets people to take action because the action is becoming a lead. Someone filling out a form in your website. So if you wanna have a lead generation machine website, you have to get them to take action.
[00:29:51] Brian: But if you are underselling yourself and understanding everything because you're afraid of, being that guy or that girl, then you're doing yourself a disservice. So how do we bridge that gap? [00:30:00] Big question.
[00:30:00] Delia: It is a big question. And honestly, you've just gotta pull your brave pants on and go for it. And not be afraid to sing your own praises, because You are brilliant and the world needs to know it. And if you don't write it in your copy, the world will not know it.
[00:30:15] Delia: I'm a Brit and , we're kind of almost world famous for our bad cuisine and modesty. , actually the cuisine is getting much
[00:30:23] Delia: better,
[00:30:23] Brian: It is for sure
[00:30:24] Delia: We're so modest and we just of think, ah, just put a lot of joke in here. And then like, PS will you hire me? that doesn't work.
[00:30:32] Delia: I'm sorry, it doesn't work. You can still have comedy, you can have humor, you can have your personality, but you need to be saying in your copy what makes you brilliant and fabulous and radiant and what are the benefits of working with you and lists them out?
[00:30:46] Delia: These are the three big benefits of working with me. What are the big outcomes that your customers get? own them because you deserve them. don't beat 'em around the bush with that. You deserve it. And at the end of the day, we have to be salespeople if we want to be [00:31:00] successful creative entrepreneurs.
[00:31:01] Delia: so anyone who struggles with that, I would say write it out. Talk to maybe your friends about it or talk to any business colleagues or people you've worked with says that you feel that they're genuine. I'm not saying to write stuff that's a load of rubbish. No. It's genuine stuff. And step into it.
[00:31:19] Delia: An owner. And that also, Brian is why I think testimonials are so good. Because, a lot of the copy on my website actually, it's my testimonials that are doing the heavy lifting for me. the other thing I would say about testimonials going back to a mistake I see people make on websites, know, like that H two copy or the subhead that you would put before any better copy, in testimonials, sometimes there isn't one.
[00:31:46] Delia: Or it's the name of a person, which, unless that person is actually too famous, their name doesn't mean anything. So pull out the best bit in the copy, the bit that makes you blush a little bit, get a little bit [00:32:00] excited, wanna show it to your mom and make that line the actual heading for the testimonial because people read that and then you're not even having to say it yourself.
[00:32:09] Brian: this is kind of the difference between persuasive copy and sleazy copy. Persuasive copy gets someone to take an action. It's truthful, it's not overstating, but it's definitely not understanding, it's telling the truth from the perspective of what the client said.
[00:32:20] Brian: Cuz you can just pull it straight from the testimonial or some variation of what they said in the testimonial. Sleazy copy is when you are straight up lying or being manipulative And I think that there has to be a hard line, drawn between those two things. Between persuasive copy and manipulation and being sleazy.
[00:32:34] Brian: Because right now I think most creatives, they look at these two things as synonymous. They look at persuasive copy is. Sive copy is manipulative and they aren't, unless you are writing things that are untrue or writing things that are overstating or taking something out of context to mean one thing or it didn't mean that thing.
[00:32:53] Brian: So I love the idea of taking things from a testimonial, especially like a result driven testimonial where I could take one from [00:33:00] one of the wins that our, my coaching community just recently did, where one of our clients had a $22,500 day. I could literally just say that in a headline and have the whole screenshot or testimonial underneath that, and that's the section right there.
[00:33:11] Brian: I didn't have to write that, but that's the result. On that note, do you do screenshot or do you do like a formatted testimonial on your website when you do testimonials?
[00:33:20] Delia: Yeah. So I do both and I think both are very, very powerful. If you do a formatted testimonial, make sure that you've got the full name of the person that you ideally have their business name, or at least the industry they're in,
[00:33:33] Delia: and ideally a
[00:33:33] Delia: photo.
[00:33:34] Brian: It makes people be like, oh, that's not fake. I can literally look up this business right
[00:33:37] Brian: now.
[00:33:37] Delia: Yeah. And a photo is really key as well because people read websites in different ways and there's lots of different types of readers. But one thing we are always doing is trying to find people that look like us, or people if they look like us, people that maybe have a similar industry to us.
[00:33:53] Delia: So a similar space to us. So if you can make that formatted testimonial, feel more relevant to the reader with a [00:34:00] photo in the industry, that will really, really help. I love screenshotted testimonials too. I think they're brilliant. I think sometimes if they go on too long or they're too big, then it's good to like do a little circle around the bit that's important or underline a bit.
[00:34:12] Delia: And I tend to use both, especially if I was doing a longer form sales page, but absolutely do.
[00:34:18] Brian: we've got testimonials. We've got the mind map where we're like infusing our personality into things. We've talked about persuasion versus being manipulative and where to draw the line there. What else do we need to have? A website that is. Quote, a lead generation machine
[00:34:31] Delia: So you need a killer about Paige
[00:34:34] Brian: These are, awful typically, and this is an area that most people struggle with. So please tell me everything you can about writing a good about page or about section on your website.
[00:34:42] Delia: Yeah. That's so important because there's a sta I think that's it's the second most visited page on MO'S websites.
[00:34:48] Brian: view them all the time, and I don't even really have one for my own brands.
[00:34:53] Delia: Brian.
[00:34:54] Brian: I know, I know. I kind of have one for the six figure creative. If, if you click it, it'll just it'll scroll down the page or something. I don't even know, [00:35:00] but I need to make a legit.
[00:35:01] Delia: Yeah, I think it's really important. I keep going back to my pub analogy, , there's a theme here, but the about page is like that. Walking into the pub, getting introduced to somebody new, having a drink together and getting that first impression. obviously you're doing it from the view of maybe hiring this person.
[00:35:19] Delia: So what do you need on your about page? You need to trust the person. You need to feel that they are an expert. No, they're the right person for the job, for their expertise, and you need to feel that they're credible. Oh, and one more, bonus one, that you're gonna be fun to work with, firm, good, reliable, your actual personality of what you're gonna be like to work with.
[00:35:37] Delia: Because as service providers, that's a huge part of it. Yes, our creative work is super, super important, but it's also, what is it gonna be like to work with this person? So that are the four things that I think you really need to aim for. One of the things that like I feel has become very fashionable to say, and I dunno if you'll have heard this before, is you about Paige shouldn't be about you.
[00:35:57] Delia: It should be about your ideal
[00:35:59] Delia: [00:36:00] audience.
[00:36:00] Brian: I say that , please go against the grain. I love when people completely shit on something that I've said many times on this show, so please, What should we do
[00:36:07] Brian: instead?
[00:36:08] Delia: there's an element of truth to it, but it should be about you because your ideal audience wants to meet you, but This is like the key point. It should be everything about you that your ideal audience needs to know. what is relevant to them?
[00:36:22] Delia: So as you're writing you about Paige, think about their pains and their struggles, and Did your story start with a similar pain or struggle? And can you start telling your story from that way? But people do wanna hear it about you. You know, I've seen about pages that start with, it's not about me, it's about you.
[00:36:39] Delia: And then like, this kind of like reconfirmation of, of who the audience is. But it's like actually, like how many times are you on someone's about page now You want the, gosh, who are they? Who have they
[00:36:49] Delia: work with?
[00:36:50] Brian: I find myself really agreeing with you cuz if I go to an about page and I'm trying to learn more about who's behind this business or. Who am I about to interview? . So I like to about page before [00:37:00] this or somebody I'm about to hire or thinking about hiring or buying something from.
[00:37:04] Brian: I just wanna know more about that. And if it's all about me, then it just feels like I'm being pitched. So I like the idea of it being about the person. Cause I'm trying to figure out who I'm about to buy from, or who I'm about to interview, or who amm about to invest in as a coach or whatever. So like, I find myself agreeing.
[00:37:18] Brian: However, maybe I'm completely going against myself here, but I don't think I've ever said fully just make it all about them. But it's Anything that you were saying about yourself needs to be spun about how it helps them get what they want or need.
[00:37:28] Brian: having both elements to it. It's not just about the fact that you have 50 years experience doing this and you have helped people make a billion dollars and you went to 30 colleges for 500 years and , I'm being ridiculous. But all these stats about yourself that nobody really cares about unless it's some way directly affects them in the project or the thing that they're.
[00:37:45] Delia: Absolutely. And this is again, like whether you before we comes in, it's still relevant on your about page. instead of saying I've got 50 years of experience and I've done this, I've done that, it's like you need a copywriter with five years of experience. You need a [00:38:00] copywriter that's been a journalist and will know how to interview your customers or whatever it is are, you are turning your, your experience and your expertise and you're making it relevant to your ideal audience.
[00:38:10] Delia: But it is about you and it is also about what you are bringing to the table. And, if you've worked with big names or you've, got certain things and characteristics that you think other people don't, then this is the page where you really talk about it and do some storytelling as well.
[00:38:24] Delia: Like, I'm a sucker for storytelling and you're about pages where you can do it and own it I haven't bit on my about page where I talk about the fact that I was kicked out of nursery,
[00:38:35] Brian: Out of
[00:38:36] Brian: what,
[00:38:37] Delia: suspended, sorry. I was suspended from nursery school.
[00:38:39] Brian: what is nursery school by the way? Oh, okay. Americans. I don't, I think we call it preschool. I've never heard of nursery school before.
[00:38:45] Brian: like you're a mean toddler, just like fighting kids
[00:38:50] Delia: and I tell you why has come back and bit me on the ass cuz now I've got a mean
[00:38:57] Brian: Oh yeah. Yeah. I'm [00:39:00] terrified if, my wife and I end up having kids that we're gonna have a little, kid like I was, cuz I was, something else.
[00:39:05] Delia: Anyway, sorry. Storytelling. Yeah, so that's kind of a jokey thing I mentioned because that's also part of my personality and stuff. But your, about Paige is where you can tell some stories and, bring those stories through but what I always say is don't just dump everything.
[00:39:20] Delia: Do think about what your ideal audience needs to hear to build credibility, trust, and see you as the expert that they might wanna hire.
[00:39:30] Brian: being kicked outta nursery school thing is the part where you're trying to show that you're fun to work with, where you talk about that. every single element of your about page or about section is leaning to one of those four things.
[00:39:38] Brian: And one that you've mentioned, but it's not part of the four you said is being reliable. I think that as freelancers the bar is really low when it comes to being reliable. Like I , especially back in the space that I came from in the music production world. That's my background. very few people did what they said they would do when they said they would do it. So if you ever did what you say you're gonna do, you're already ahead of the game. If you said it, when you're gonna do it, you're on [00:40:00] time. That's like next level. just showing the reliability factor is huge when it comes to like standing out in that world.
[00:40:06] Brian: Maybe it's way more competitive in the copywriting world, which I think it is. Copywriters seem to have their stuff together way more than the music producers in the world. So that's, that. Is there anything else we need to, talk through when it comes to the lead generating website?
[00:40:17] Delia: one other thing I would mention as well, which I think ties into what you just said, is about getting your process on your website because your process helps underpin that notion that you're reliable. If you've got a proven process that works, give it a name. And make people feel that you are the only one that has that process.
[00:40:37] Delia: And talk me through the steps don't gimme 20 steps, . first I email you and then you and me, us know, break it down into maybe like four steps and, give a timeline if it's just one service you're offering and you can, if it's not, if you are offering more services, but you're still following a framework, then talk about it and make it really clear what it is and break it down and give it a name, because I think that helps.
[00:40:55] Brian: How granular do you get when describing your process? Because I've seen, this go [00:41:00] awry very quickly where it's. Every single detail. You fill out this form and then you send me the files, and then I will do this, and then I send them back to you. And then we collaborate back. Like, so much sh info that it blows my mind.
[00:41:11] Brian: help me here? how much should we
[00:41:12] Brian: add to these steps in our process?
[00:41:14] Delia: Yeah, that's a good question. I would say keep it to three or four steps, and again, make it audience focused. So what is the result of each of those steps? So for example, my process is to do with the sun, obviously . So I have the sunrise, the midday sun, and
[00:41:34] Delia: the sunset. That's my process, the sunrise is research and investigations. . then I'm, again, making that customer focus like, what will you get out of this? This is where we get to know exactly what your ideal audience thinks, needs and wants. And then I'll just list some of the things we do, like customer interviews and stuff, but that's good stuff for them.
[00:41:51] Delia: It's not going back and forth on emails. Then Midday Sun, I say Only Mad Dogs and English women work in the guilty as charge. [00:42:00] That's when I write to your website. So that's when I write on wireframe and then the sunset, that's where like we're running off into happy hour, we're gonna get, uh, cocktail and that's the final revisions and feedback and your offboarding.
[00:42:13] Brian: you still put a lot of your personality in there and you really only have a line or two devoted to what you're actually doing in that. It's more about the deliverables and outcome. The rest of it is around keeping it on brand. The voice is there, making it fun. And that's just your experience.
[00:42:26] Brian: Do you do the exact same thing with all your clients, or do you change it up depending on With the client wants or?
[00:42:31] Delia: Yeah, it depends on the clients. So I've had some clients that have gone with themes. I did a website for a designer and we went with a theme creative consultant. There's a kind of slightly medical theme throughout. And so we did her process, like the prescription and then, the diagnosis.
[00:42:49] Delia: so again we went with that theme. But you don't have to have a themed website. don't feel like you have to. So if you don't, then you can put your surname in it or put your first name in it or put your initials in it,[00:43:00] but give it a name so that it feels unique to you.
[00:43:03] Delia: And then just bracket it down, those three things. And, you could call it the research and investigation stage the design stage, the feedback stage. But let's see if you can just get a little bit more creative and see if you can give them another name.
[00:43:16] Brian: And that's where wordsmithing comes in, is just how can we make it a little less vanilla, a little more brown butter, almond Brittle, the most tongue twisting flavor of ice cream that gin's puts I guess just to kind of wrap up How do you personally stay up to date on like the latest trends, techniques, copywriting?
[00:43:30] Brian: What sort of advice would you give on any freelancers who are trying to improve in this area?
[00:43:33] Delia: Gosh, I feel like I'm constantly reading five books.
[00:43:37] Brian: Just the same five books.
[00:43:38] Delia: No, constantly reading different ones.
[00:43:41] Brian: my wife's that way. She always has five books she's going through at the same time. I'm like, Nope. I've got my morning book, which is business. I've got my evening book, epic fantasy, a 10 book series with a thousand pages each, whatever, and it takes me six months to get through all that.
[00:43:52] Brian: That's my reading schedule and I can only focus on one at a time for each of those. But go ahead. What are some recommendations for
[00:43:57] Brian: resources on staying ahead of the curve?
[00:43:59] Delia: I'm [00:44:00] normally listening to a book on Audible. I'm reading one on Kindle. I'm reading websites. I'm following people in the space. I love reading a lot about positioning as well, because that and UX best practices because all of this photos into copywriting too. I would say just maybe find a few more people that you like on Instagram and follow them.
[00:44:19] Brian: You obviously being one of them.
[00:44:21] Delia: and hey, you can find me on Instagram. I'm Jacob . hard to say. I feel like I just, read one book and then it opens up a can of worms for me. And I'm, before I know I'm on
[00:44:30] Delia: another book, but,
[00:44:31] Delia: one of the first copywriting books I ever read is called Read Me Brilliant title. And it's like a coffee table book, and it just has so much of the basics about copywriting and it also has a lot of like creative copywriting as well, which I really love.
[00:44:48] Delia: And how to Think Outside the box. That was the book that I started with, that I've really.
[00:44:53] Brian: read me. That'll be on our show notes page also at the six figure creative.com/ 2 42. Anything on just specifically on the persuasive copywriting [00:45:00] side? Cause I think that's an area our audience needs the most help with. If you think you're being too grandiose in your copy, as a creative, you're probably just scratching the surface of where you should be. anywhere I'm, I'm challenging, especially my coaching program to write better copy. I tell them to go the extreme other side of copywriting just to test things out, just to test the waters, just to see what they come out with.
[00:45:18] Brian: And they are almost always ecstatic with the results when they release that wall of writing copy that is just within this tiny little box that creatives wanna write in. So do you have like any persuasive copy resources, courses, programs or books that you can re.
[00:45:32] Delia: Absolutely. So, One of the, I was about to say the daddy, but I guess she would be like, the mommy of persuasive copywriting is definitely Joe Weeb at Copy Hackers. she coined the phrase conversion copywriting, and I trained at Copy Hackers and can personally vouch for it.
[00:45:49] Delia: really diving in the deep end, but it's fantastic. There's also like a lot of books on like psychology and stuff that you can read I've read Influence,
[00:45:57] Brian: that one's been recommended on this show multiple times by Robert [00:46:00] Aldini,
[00:46:00] Delia: Yeah, exactly. That's fantastic as well. And it's an interesting one because you can read all this psychology and then you could choose to be manipulative with it. And so I am a conversion copywriter and I really believe in understanding the psychology of the audience to be able to write better copy to be able to sell.
[00:46:18] Delia: But I think for me, the key point that comes into it is empathy. So it's like understanding the position of how somebody is feeling, why they're not buying, and then meeting that with empathy. Cuz you read a book like Influence and it's like fascinating and you could totally go to the dark side , you know, use it negatively.
[00:46:36] Delia: But I just find it really fascinating to sort understand the human mind.
[00:46:40] Brian: I think knowing that stuff
[00:46:41] Brian: is just as important to use for yourself as a business owner, especially if you are legitimately a better solution than the competitor down the road. you're doing your customer duty by learning that stuff to use. But it's also good to learn when it's being used against you because not all people have your best interests at heart.
[00:46:55] Brian: So by knowing these sorts psychology principles specifically in the book influence we're talking about [00:47:00] here. It's good to know when these sorts of things are being used against you for harm. So, Where would you like to send our listeners to go to learn more about you or connect with you or hire you or follow you or whatever?
[00:47:08] Delia: Yeah, sure. So I mainly hang out on Instagram, Delia dot Monk on Instagram. And you can also head over to my website. And actually I've got a three step plan, which might help when it comes to writing websites. It talks through some of the stuff we've talked today through the research, and some of the creative questions that you can ask to get into that mind map state.
[00:47:27] Delia: And you can get email@example.com slash plan.
[00:47:31] Brian: I just followed you on Instagram and the link to her Instagram and the everything she's mentioned, including that link to her website will firstname.lastname@example.org slash 2 4 2. That's just one central place you can go to for all links and all resources mentioned on this show. Delia, thank you so much for coming on the show today.
[00:47:46] Brian: This has been a blast. the mind of our listeners are, spinning right now with the possibilities and the areas they need to improve on their website. thank you so.
[00:47:52] Delia: Thank you, Brian. Thanks for having me.
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