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The 5 Types Of Follow-Ups That Will Help You Double Your Income | With Mark Eckert

Episode art

Please tell me you’ve never been this person…

“Hey.”

“How’s it going?”

“U there? lol.”

“Hello?!?!?”

That’s the person who makes everyone cringe when they’re around. If that’s you, I hate to say it, but there’s a reason everyone ignores you. 

On the other side of things, if you’re the type of person who never follows up with anyone then you’re leaving half your potential income behind. 

Following up is an important part of business, but as with almost everything in life there’s a tactful, professional way to do it and then there’s a desperate, needy, cringey way to do it.  

On this episode of 6 Figure Creative, Brian Hood and substitute co-host Mark Eckert talk about the 5 types of follow-ups that can help double your income over the next 12 months. 

In this episode you’ll discover:

  • Why you should follow up with people
  • How to follow up properly in 5 different situations
  • What to use as your subject line for email follow ups
  • How to nurture relationships by following up
  • Why being pushy or nudgy is not the way to follow up
  • How to get introductions to the right people
  • Why speaking in a polite and political manner helps in follow ups
  • How to use your network to grow your network
  • When to offer people money in exchange for their time

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Quotes 

“We're really just training you how to be my mother. That is literally what's going on, you're going to feel like me as a child.” – Mark Eckert

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Related Episodes

#152: How To Build A Multi-Six Figure Video Production Business Using Cold Emails | With Anthony Craparotta

 

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The Follow-Up Is the Most Important Email You’ll Ever Write

 

People and Entertainment

Shark Tank

Mark Cuban

Brian: [00:00:00] Welcome back to another episode of the six figure creative podcast. I am your host Brian Hood, and I am not here with my big bald.

Brian: Beautiful co-host Christopher J. Graham. Instead, I'm Here with a, just somebody that had to, I just, I needed somebody. So I got this guy. He's just he's here. This is like his fifth time on the podcast. I don't even know mark Eckert. Hey mark.

Mark: Here I am. Harry. Happy. Ready to help? What's good. Hello. We're live on the air. I'm with my sexy very excited to be recording a podcast day person. Brian

Brian: Okay. So correction, we are not live. This is edited. Thank God, because this was probably going to be a train wreck of a conversation. Hey, because you and I have never, co-hosted an episode before, this is not an, this is not an interview by the way, this is a co he's, basically Mark's taking Chris's place.

Brian: And then second of all we will both mess up today. And if this were live, then people would see how, how, how bad we actually are,

Mark: Yeah. I don't know what I'm doing. Uh, to put in some perspective Brian [00:01:00] called me up. He was like, Hey man, you want, you want to do this thing with me today? And I was like, yeah, yeah, why not? And the studio that I'm always working out of we just put a bunch of new gear in and I don't even know where the mic set up or anything.

Mark: So I'm at Equinox spot who it

Mark: works with that. yeah, he works for me and he's like the best person in the world and I totally am just running his apartment today. So thanks Enoch. He was in the other room.

Brian: Yeah. Yeah. So like you literally took over this, this port, his apartment, like you just said, get outta here. This is a video podcast. So you have to go sit in your room. You can't use your own apartment. I'm going to use your studio. Mike, I'm going to take over everything because you literally, in your own recording studio, you don't know how to set up a mic and camera.

Mark: yes, new, new spot, new problems. But aside from all of that, I am qualified. I'm credible, I'm hairy, happy and ready to help. So

Brian: If you needed any credibility indicators, mark has been on this podcast at least two or three other times as a guest. And today is the first time being a co-host. So today's episode, we've got a treat for anyone still [00:02:00] watching right now. We're going to talk about something that will literally double your income.

Brian: If you're not already doing it. We have talked about this so many times in the past, but we've never, I don't think we're really even dedicated an episode to it. Like we are today. This is, and I quote an article. We're going to be referencing a lot today. I quote, the followup is the most important communication that you can have in your business.

Brian: And mark, you were saying earlier, you think it's even more important than your first impression.

Mark: Yeah. I mean, uh, I think it's really easy to meet somebody for the first time. Like if you're just, for instance, if you're walking into a club, you can just nag somebody be like, hello, and then they'll look at you, but getting them a second time to actually meet with you and actually talk about serious stuff.

Mark: That's really difficult. It's like getting a date on Tinder is not very difficult. Getting a second date from the same person on Tinder, very difficult. Which is why I met my wife in person because she didn't have an option anyways.

Brian: so I met my wife on Tinder. So I

Brian: have mastered the art of the followup, which is why I'm, I'm closing this

Brian: episode with

Mark: I brought that up. Yeah. And it was but yeah, no, I really [00:03:00] honestly think it's probably more than doubled your income. Like I really think at the very least, if you're following up with the right people at the very least, even 10 X, your

Mark: income and yeah.

Brian: last time, I looked this up in my own business, I've actually done The numbers. I've looked up. It's like follow ups. Like I following up at all, like at least one follow-up is like 50 to 60%, something like that. But following up like six plus times is where like 20 to 30% of my income comes from.

Brian: It's like an insane amount for like a lot of

Mark: The thing is, is that, and I think the problem with following up, I don't think it's like a, I don't think it's a good word because you're not like the term follow up is just not great because it just sounds like you're annoying somebody it's like a doctor's office. Hey, I'm following up.

Mark: You know, United health insurance. Didn't get back to us again. You know, that's just annoying. It's just got this whole connotation to it. Really, the way that I view it is like, you know, [00:04:00] I'm literally just waving at somebody again. That's how I'm looking at it. And I think a lot of people take following up or just, you know, sending another email or sending another text or calling somebody another time, whether it's like a month later, I think they don't understand that they probably just didn't even see it.

Mark: Or maybe they were in a bad mood that day. You have no clue. Or they were just busy. Like the amount of calls I've gotten when I was just busy and my friends think I'm a jerk and then I call them back and I'm like, bro, not a jerk. I was out to eat again. You know? So I think it's really about changing the mentality.

Mark: About the idea of following up is you're probably not annoying. This is just how it works. And every single person that you look up to, whether you're a photographer, a music producer you know, whatever you are in the world or what you want to be or what you're already doing, the people you look up to, the vast majority of their stuff has come from followups.

Mark: Just.

Brian: Yep. So in this episode, we're going to tackle, I guess, one of the there's two major issues really that people have. [00:05:00] First one is getting over the mental roadblock of actually following up the fear of it and being rejected or annoying people, which we'll probably talk, we'll talk, we'll touch on a little bit for this episode, but the other reason people don't follow up because they don't really know how to.

Brian: And so in this episode, we're going to address the five different types of follow-ups that you can use whenever you're following up with people. And also if you are, if you're a music producer, recording studio owners, someone in the audio space, I do have a free guide on this. Just go to follow up.guide.

Brian: It's a PDF that gives you my 60 day follow-up sequence for closing clients over 60 day periods. So there's like templates in there. It kind of, it's a really good companion to this episode. So he's going to follow up.guide. And if you don't know, if you can't reach that for something. It's always in our show notes at six-figure creative.com/one 70 for this episode.

Brian: So let's dive into this mark. Um, Just so you know, there's, we've got this, a lot of these things that we're discussing today, at least some of the templates we're pulling from is actually from an article that brought mark brought to me from medium. It's actually forged.medium.com for to disown brand, but they use medium, which is like a public facing blog.

Brian: [00:06:00] And the title, the title of this article is pause for dramatic effect. the followup is the most important email you'll ever write. And it's so damn true, but mark, you, you put it in a really fun way. This is the art of the nag.

Mark: Yeah. I mean, we're just, this is guys you know, you don't even have to think about the, the title of this email. We're really just training you how to be my mother that is literally what's going on is you're going to feel like me as a child. . That's what we're learning today, but I think like the, again, it's the most important thing you'll ever do and you know, again, it's the art of it.

Mark: There's, there's a, there's a lot of different ways to go about it while you don't feel annoying about it. So I think that's the most important.

Brian: All right. So follow up type one is the type of follow-up that you use when you haven't received a response to a cold outreach email, and this could be email. This could be direct message on social media, whatever your cold outreach method is, but for anyone who is ever sending out emails to people that they don't know it's cold.

Brian: In other words, like there's no, [00:07:00] there's no relationship there. If you actually, if you go back to episode one 50, Two of the podcasts where we interviewed Anthony crap, crap, Rhoda. I can never say his last name without laughing. I'm so sorry, Anthony. But he built a multiple six-figure video agency by actually doing cold outreach.

Brian: And so go back and listen to episode. If you aren't using this in your business, that. Episodes is really good for you to kind of maybe sway your opinion the other way, but he's again, he's making multiple six figures a year by doing cold outreach. And this is a good followup to use when you are following up to someone that you have reached out to and they have not responded.

Brian: Did you have something you want to add to this mark

Brian: before we

Brian: read this template?

Mark: I think, before, like really even going into all these different, you know, template styles, I think the basis of following up, or, you know, just reaching out to somebody is that there needs to be a specific reason to what you are writing. If you are just saying, Hey, I'm just following up or, Hey, I'm checking in or [00:08:00] whatever.

Mark: And that's all you say all that is doing is it's just giving that person anxiety. If your subject is like following up, it means like, oh my God, I'm annoyed by somebody. Oh, I, you know what, I'm logging off today. I'm having issues. So I think the main thing is you should have an, a. Dave before you're writing anything to anybody, because without an objective, you're not going to achieve a goal.

Mark: That's like that that's the whole thing. So there's different reasons of why you should be reaching out to anybody and just make sure, you know, following up with anybody there's different things you're trying to get from any relation or any, whether it's a customer or, you know, anybody you're working with, there needs to be a reason behind why you're reaching out.

Brian: Yeah. So for when you're reaching out to people that are cold to you, when you're doing cold outreach emails, first of all, I would always suggest following up one time with people, I've been the recipient of like a long chain of follow-ups to a cold email in which I didn't. I had no interest in replying to, and I'll tell you right now, like I have, I do not have hold the [00:09:00] person in high regard.

Brian: That was emailing me cold. And following up multiple times now I have had many people email me once and then follow up once. And I don't hate those people. So that's something worth noting. and I've also had somebody reached out to me via cold email and got what they were looking for out.

Brian: of me, because it was such a great cold email.

Brian: So I know it can work and I know the followup can work, but don't overdo this. So one follow-up and the whole objective of the follow-up with a cold email is to simply get a reply. You're trying to, that's the objective. You're trying to initiate some sort of conversation because without conversation, there is no relationship.

Brian: And without a relationship, there is no. Customer client relationship, whatever it is, whatever it is you're looking for. There is no, there is no further step. So that's the objective. Mark. Do you want to go over this kind of like template that she wrote in this article as an example for the cold outreach, a follow-up email.

Mark: Yeah. Sure. So again, when you haven't received a response to a cold email, so this is just contacting somebody for the first time, you don't really know them or whatever, and they haven't responded. So mark, [00:10:00] hi. I was glad to see shark tank is back on your investment in those robot dogs was inspiring.

Mark: I'm ready again to see if I can book you as the headliner guest of my podcast, shark talk, which just celebrated its 10 million for download. This would involve a 30 minute call done at your convenience. I'd love to release your episode. The week of the season finale. Would you have 30 minutes before the end of the month?

Brian: let's break this down. Cause there's a lot going on in this, in this email. And I break it down into just a few sections here. We'll, we'll kind of cover these quickly, but we've got a lot more to cover today. So we're not going to like belabor this whole thing. First of all, this is obviously to mark Cuban shark tank fame.

Brian: this example is not entirely relevant to the six-figure creative community, but we'll bring it back to our community just so you can understand how this all works. The first thing is she says, hi, mark. And then she says, I was glad to see shark tank is back on your investment in those robot.

Brian: Dogs was inspiring. The whole point of this first sentence is to establish that this is a personally written email and not a mass blanket email sent out to a thousand other people. [00:11:00] It's incredible. How few people do this in cold emails and in follow-up emails to personalize it, to show that this is this isn't just simple spam mass spam.

Brian: So that's the first thing. Second part is I'm writing again, to see if I can book you as the headliner guest of my podcast. Shark talk, there's the ask. That's what, that's what the whole, like what, what does this person want from me? Anytime you're reaching out cold to somebody to thinking, what does this person want?

Brian: She gets to the point very quickly. That's the very next thing is I'm writing again to see if I can book you as the headliner guest on my podcast, shark talks. So you've got that out of the way. And then she says, which just celebrated his 10000000th download. there's a point of that's really worth pointing out.

Brian: And that is a social proof. Mark, can you talk about why that she puts the 10 million download thing in this email?

Mark: Well, so I think it's really, really important because if she's talking to somebody like mark Cuban, you have to think, what is she wanting out of? This is that mark Cuban is going to give her a lot of credibility. And it's going to add a lot to the podcast, people who are listening to the podcast, right.

Mark: It's going to be really awesome that [00:12:00] mark Cuban is on there. Cause he's a big deal. That being said, mark Cuban is, as we said, massive, he's not going to do something if it's not going to move the needle forward in his life, so to speak. So he needs to know that he's not wasting any time. And while you're writing that out, you may think it's a flex or you're bragging, but no, you're just saying, Hey man, we're operating on the same level here or a level that is at least respectable to you.

Mark: I'm not asking a lot from you. And I think this could help you actually, I have 10 million downloads and there's millions of people that would be listening to something you're doing. Let's say you're, you know, in his mind, he'll be saying, oh, I just invested in this new thing on shark tank. Wow. Here's 2 million potential customers for me.

Mark: You know what? I'll put in a half hour of my time, I'll talk to her and then I can get a couple hundred thousand people over to this new thing.

Brian: So think about this from your perspective as a freelancer. Like if you're, if you're reaching out to somebody that you want to connect with in some way, [00:13:00] whether it's what I call a gatekeeper, somebody who controls lots and lots of projects for you potentially or whether it's a potential client that you want to connect with.

Brian: Think through it, from the perspective of like, what do you need to say to first tell them what's edit for them? Why, why should they respond? What's in it for that person? And two, what can you say to indicate that you are worth responding to those two things are, are rarely added to cold emails and are a must.

Brian: If you want replies.

Mark: like to add to that. So, you know, in this example, you know, the emailer is talking about the millions and millions of downloads and you, you might be saying to yourself, oh, I'm a photographer, right? What, what is, you know, how does this relate? I don't have millions and millions of actions. But I do have like some credibility or something like that.

Mark: So I was talking to my buddy Daniel this morning, who's a photographer here in town and he was trying to work with a specific agency. And they do a lot of corporate work. So these are like, you know, 10, $20,000 gigs. And he's doing a bunch of head shots. Well, he was like, how do I get in with that sort of stuff?

Mark: And [00:14:00] a big thing. I always, you know, I have this written down. I always think about this. You should write this down. If you're listening, the best way to work with Coca Cola is to say, you're working with Pepsi. He had worked with another company here in town and he just named shock and said, Hey, So he started out personal. I really loved your guys' take on, you know, this industry. It's very tasteful. It's amazing. I just got done working with so-and-so. I would love to see how we can help you with blah, blah, blah. And it, it was easy. He got the gig, obviously it took like a week to negotiate, but he got

Mark: the gig.

Brian: So there's a, there's a couple of things at play there. One is he did have that a established relationship and kind of name-drop that he could use, which probably took him years to get, but likely he got that relationship and that name to drop from something that was maybe a little smaller than them.

Brian: So he's kind of, stair-stepping his way up the ladder. So think through, if you're thinking through who should I email to try to get as a client or a relationship in my life, who's someone that's within the realm. Like you're not going to skip six [00:15:00] steps if you're trying to climb a staircase, but you might skip one or two steps.

Mark: Yeah. And if you're a photographer, yo bro, or SIS talk it up, you know, let's say you were just doing a shoot with a couple of your homeys by a river or something like that. With background landscape shots, you can say, we just had this all encompassed three days, shoot onsite, blah, blah, blah, with so, and so they love that.

Mark: They'll eat it up. It's fine.

Mark: And you're not lying.

Brian: Part of it is making sure you're properly positioning and explaining the things that you do, but, but we'll move on from this cause that's, that's like a good it's w we got a lot of good stuff here. There's one more part that she adds into this email. This is worth explaining, especially if you're talking to busy people who don't have the time of day, she goes on to say, this would involve a 30 minute call at your convenience.

Brian: I'd love to release your episode of the week of the season finale. Would you have 30 minutes before the end of this month? So she gives it, she's actually two things that she does there. This clever one is she she'll let them know what the time expectation is because he's busy, but she does something very clever there.

Brian: And she, she adds an, a deadline to this. [00:16:00] She wants this episode out by the season finale. So let me know if you have time 30 minutes before the end of the month. Why is that important?

Mark: because it gives him a little bit of a nudge to respond to it. Hey, I have 10 million people. I'm dangling this little fruit in front of you. If you want this fruit, this is when you can eat the fruit. And so that's going to give him, or realistically his a thousand assistance

Brian: Yeah, it's true. The man

Brian: is a billionaire. So yeah.

Brian: if you're a billionaire, you're not answering your emails.

Mark: Yeah. But it gives kind of a nudge to say, Hey, here's this potential opportunity for you, which is at supply brow, that's applied.

Brian: Yeah. And the other reason I think this is an important thing is when there's a deadline, it forces someone to make a decision by default. we'll talk about this a little bit more, maybe through the rest of the, some of these other templates we're talking about are these, these follow-up methods.

Brian: But if there is a deadline, it forces them to make a decision. If they're not forced to make a decision than a note, decision by default is a no. If they don't make a decision. The decision is always by default a no. So when you [00:17:00] force a decision because of a deadline, there's a chance they will say Yes.

Mark: Yep. And th this is, you know, this is the grand rule of sales is don't let them make the process for you. Just present some options. This is why, if you go to a restaurant, they have a menu. If you imagine going somewhere and being like, oh, I would like a circle of meat with two buttons on one side of the other.

Mark: And then I want you to go and get lettuce and put it. That's a hamburger. You order a hamburger. They say how much it costs. Give them an option. That's it. It's simple. Do you have time or no. Thank you. Goodbye.

Brian: That's a good point. All right. Let's move on here. So that's the, that's the kind of the framework for the followup for when you have not received a response to a cold email, this is actually a common one. We get all the time. Hey, should I ever follow up with cold people that have emailed and be what the hell do I say to people that I've cold emailed when I follow up, because it's awkward and I don't know who they don't know who I am.

Brian: So there's a good, a good framework for you. Moving on to number two, the second follow-up [00:18:00] type is when you need to establish a deadline. This actually goes hand in hand with what we just said here, but this is the kind of follow-up you use whenever you are trying to say like, Hey, this is, this is the line in the sand.

Brian: Like it's time to it's time to figure something out here. So this actually goes hand in hand with the end of that last email, mark. You want to read this?

Brian: Uh,

Mark: And just so you know, I used this exact template on a, on a client that I have and it worked.

Mark: It was great.

Brian: I've used this. type of email so many times and it's in my CR CRM stats. My customer relationship management stats. This template is the most opened and the most replied to have all my followup

Brian: templates.

Mark: it's not being mean, but it's just saying that you're set, standing ground or whatever

Mark: that saying is on up

Brian: and by the way, if you want my exact line in the sand deadline, email template, make sure you download my guide@follow.guide. And that's in that PDF. That's 60 day follow-up sequence.

Mark: Beautiful. All right, cool. I'm going to act as narrator

Mark: Justine, I hope this has been a good week for you so far. Our project is moving [00:19:00] along nicely. Here are outstanding items we need from your team. One completed employee time sheets from February 10th to February 17th, to updated org chart.

Mark: I guess,

Mark: organization chart with new hires at it.

Brian: I can, I can just, I can hear people turning off their podcast right now. This

Brian: is so businessy could get through the damn template. Well, we'll

Brian: rewrite this for the creative community Here

Mark: here's a list of stuff. And then I need to deliver these to a corporate office by end of day, Wednesday. Can you please send this by noon tomorrow? Thank you.

Brian: Let me just say this. This is from the article you read, and we want to give full credit to this article. Cause these, these follow-up types are from that email are from that article and these are all great things that template to me is not that interesting or that good.

Brian: So I want to actually present my own type of response that I like to do in these situations when you do establish a deadline and the most common deadline that we need to establish is when we're in a sales conversation. When we have talked to a potential client, they're on the fence, they need time to think, or they need time [00:20:00] to get money together, or they have some loose ends to tie up or they need to talk to a decision maker.

Brian: Like someone that they, you know, there's something they have to do before they can actually make the decision and you're waiting and you're waiting. And if you keep waiting. In perpetuity, what will happen is they'll ghost on you and it's because they never made a decision. And this deadline should, you should have a deadline type email for your followups when it comes to quotes, you sent out or sales calls you've had or whatever.

Brian: So the followup for this should be something like, and I'm, and I'm really just spit balling here, mark. So please forgive me if I screw this up, but it's like, Hey Joe Schmoe, there's my made up name. Hey Joe, Joe, I sent you the proposal earlier this month.

Brian: I hope you found it to your liking, please, guys, don't say that these are just made up. I could come up with better way better examples. If I wrote this out, I hope you found it to your liking. There's a few points in there that may be worth discussing further. If you would like to jump on a call, if you're not ready to move forward.

Brian: I totally understand. I just need to either mark this proposal as [00:21:00] lost and move on, or we can jump on another call and discuss any questions that you might have. Please let me know by X date, if you're ready to move forward or if you're not, if you would like to, in this proposal, what this does, and that's a terrible example, if

Mark: I thought it was pretty good bride. Don't

Mark: be so hard on yourself.

Brian: Thank you. You're such a positive person, mark. I'm way better at writing things out than I am of just coming up with them

Mark: Best substitute co-host ever.

Brian: Thanks, mark. Uh, substitute co-host yeah. That's your title from now on Martin?

Mark: I'm down to be that

Brian: Yeah. So the whole point of this though, is when you send a proposal out or some sort of client agreement out, or some sort of thing that they would typically sign And then pay deposit depend on what your process is.

Brian: Everyone's onboarding process is different or sales process is different. So the whole point of this is when you send one of these things, always have a deadline on it and that deadline. Is the great thing that allows you to send this deadline email or the foot, the line in the sand email.

Brian: If you don't have a deadline on a proposal or a client agreement, or some sort of quote you out, if you don't [00:22:00] have a deadline attached to it that is clear to see, then it kind of feels like you're making up arbitrary deadlines. Even if you are making up arbitrary deadlines. The fact that it's written on a proposal saying this proposal expires, or this quote expires on X date, the fact that you put it on there is a good enough reason to reach out to them and let them know the deadlines coming up and reach out if they have any questions or if they'd like to get on a call and you, and I, know you have thoughts on this mark.

Mark: Yeah. And I I think another thing to kind of go on with that is like, obviously you're stabbing at a time, et cetera, but I think when deadlines are important is when really. Somebody is having to opt into something. So I think this is kind of like a whole thing. Anytime you're establishing a deal with somebody, maybe they're not officially working with you or stuff like that.

Mark: Or you're, you know, you're trying to get them into a sale, something they have to opt into taking action with you. Like they, they have to make a conscious decision to do something for you. Whereas an opt [00:23:00] out situation is something like paying your utility bill. It's just going to draft from you every single month.

Mark: You have to take action to not pay them. So when you are the thing that a lot of freelancers experience, and when I was only producing full-time, now I'm doing a bit music licensing, obviously, Brian, you know that, but when I was only producing You know, a big thing is that the standard is that you invoice people or, you know, there's maybe 50% down and then they pay 50% after whatever there's more things for them to do afterwards.

Mark: So what you need to kind of realize to yourself is if somebody is naturally, if another party, if somebody else is naturally in an opt in situation where they have to make a decision to do something, you just need to set the expectation for yourself. So you don't get so discouraged. It's normal to nag people.

Mark: This is how it goes. Nobody wants to see less money in their bank account. Even if they're getting value from you, [00:24:00] you can do the best damn job in the entire world. Oh my God, it's amazing. You did the best job. They got the biggest deal of their life. And you brought their great grandparents back from the dead.

Mark: Like you did all these amazing things at the end of the day. They don't want to see less money in their account and that's okay. So just expect that you're going to nag them. It's okay. But set that expectations internally or else you're going to get really discouraged. W would

Mark: you agree, Brian?

Brian: Oh, I agree wholeheartedly. And you saying all that made me think of something and I, I don't know why. I think I do this a little bit, but I've never put just a solid policy in place in any of my businesses. And that is when there's an, opt-in an activity involved that a client has to do something.

Brian: They have to physically do something in our credit card, or they have to physically send a file or send revisions or something to me, putting a deadline on when they have to have that thing by, in order to hit a deadline of my own or an order to get their stuff by this date, or an order for us to finish this month, there needs to be a deadline and then a consequence for [00:25:00] missing that deadline.

Mark: Well, yeah, I have, I have a clause in, in a production contract where basically, if somebody doesn't if we're not working for over a year, like we can't do any more revisions. Like that's done. I don't, I'm not having all of this stuff saved. If it's like 40 gigs of stuff, like, yeah, I can have it backed up, but then I have to reload everything.

Mark: Maybe the files are messed up or something. So once a year hits, like, and if they haven't contacted me, that's it. So it's good to have like deadlines of actions on part by the buyer.

Brian: Yeah. So deadline. Yeah. There's like we could probably have a whole episode just on deadlines to add to your business,

Mark: I

Mark: have a

Mark: 10 episodes on revisions. Oh my God.

Brian: But I'm just thinking through any time you're waiting on the client to do something that they need to take an action on. That's where I'm thinking deadlines, where I'm waiting on them for something there has to be a deadline. And there's a, this there's, there's plenty of like, not even just sales, but like when you're waiting on files that your client supposed to send you your, when you're waiting on them to do something, to get ready for something like put a deadline on it and just let them know if we miss this [00:26:00] deadline, here's what will happen.

Brian: And as you approach the deadline, this email that we just talked about, you should always have, an email of establishing a deadline or a consequence to a deadline coming up. So just have a lot of these saved. If you do set

Mark: And I think, and this will be kind of last thing on it so we can get to the next one, I would imagine, but not to go too off tangent, but. It's really good at a startup, a working relationship. And I'm sure you talked about this plenty on the podcast so far is establishing expectations because what you don't want is for a client to feel like they got a bait and switch is if you set the expectations, Hey, if I need something done, unless you are sick or, you know, anything reasonable.

Mark: I expect an action within two weeks because I've set this time aside for this specific project I'm running as an agency. The more time I spent on you, the less my other clients get value. So we need things done quickly. If you set that immediately, that they agree to it. It's totally fine. And then they know it's their fault.

Mark: If they're not doing something right. But if you establish it later on or say, Hey, you [00:27:00] know, here's going to be a problem there. They're just not going to comply. And you're going to end up with a bad taste in their mouth. And they're going to say, don't work with this person to all their.

Brian: Yeah, it's funny. You say you mentioned this. I actually last week I recorded a video about this subject on creating a, a rock solid client agreement that properly sets expectations like this. So that'll actually be out on YouTube next Thursday.

Brian: So

Brian: keep an eye on, on, yeah, just go to six-figure creative.com/youtube, subscribe to that YouTube channel and you'll get that video when it comes out and assholes the video also.

Brian: My whole template for sending client agreements as well. So that's something to look out for. All right. Let's move on to followup type number three. And this one is the one that I have to face Palm on because I screwed this up the most of my life. When you need to check in with a client and I'm going to, I'm going to just keep this framed in the situation of sales.

Brian: Like when you need to follow up on a sales conversation, just to check in, there's plenty of times you would just check in with a client, but I want to keep this to sales related because when we talk about followups and doubling your income, we're talking about it in relation to following up with leads who have not purchased from you yet, people [00:28:00] you've had conversations with you sent quotes to, and they just never, actually never sent you the deposit or your money.

Brian: So in this situation, Sending a check-in follow-up is important, but this is where I screwed up. And if you read my follow-up guide@followup.guide, don't follow what I do in on this specific follow-up because I literally do the rule that stated in this medium article that says this, the rule is never send a, just checking in email.

Brian: That's only about checking in always Trojan horse, the nudge express, some other point, and then put the nudge at the end. So in my email, I literally have been, and I have, I think maybe multiple ones I send in the followup sequence that are just nudges that are just like checking in to check in how are things coming along?

Brian: and I'm like thinking through, like, I probably should have gussied those up a little bit, have some sort of like, Hey, something happened that made me think of you and blah, blah, blah. Oh, by the way, I can't wait to get started with you. If, just let me know when you're ready. Like that's the, that's the like Trojan horse she talks about.

Brian: Can you

Brian: talk about Trojan horses [00:29:00] in this regard,

Brian: mark?

Mark: yeah. And kind of just going into the checking in thing, let's make this like, you know, screw the whole idea of, oh, I'm running a client business, but let's just think about life. Okay. Let's think about dating. That's

Mark: basically everybody can relate to

Brian: if you've ever watched my YouTube videos, like I, I referenced dating

Brian: analogies

Brian: more than anything

Brian: else. Yeah.

Mark: all, of this is dating. Honestly, he could probably just read some dating books and learn most of the things, you know, in business. All right. Simple thing. Nobody likes the double text. Don't

Brian: Ooh,

Brian: no. Or worse the triple or quadruple. tax.

Brian: Explain what, explain what that is. Mark.

Mark: All right. Well you know, let's say I'm going out on a date with somebody before my lovely bride Shira.

Mark: If you're out there, you're lovely. We're newlyweds. Some really

Brian: I know I was at your, I was at your wedding by the way. It was a wonderful wedding.

Mark: Yeah. He drove in what? A

Mark: guy anyways six and a half hours through a, what was that? Uh, Winter storm

Mark: in, in, over the Mount. Anyways. Anyway, sorry.

Mark: Sorry.

Brian: were at my wedding. So of course I'm going to

Brian: return the

Mark: I know I met some good friends there anyways. So the whole thing [00:30:00] is let's say I go out on a date.

Mark: Okay. So same thing for you. Let's say you got on a call with somebody for the first time. Okay. Well they didn't really respond afterwards. sent a text. Hey, how's it going? Are you doing get nothing six hours later, wakey face, you know, it's just, what the hell is this guy doing? I'm going to change my address and change my phone number.

Mark: Not good. So what do you do. You know, you keep it cool. Don't respond much, you know, take some time. If they want to reach out, listen, they can open their phone and they know you texted them. You don't need to remind them. So the, I think the real thing is here is don't nudge to nudge, have a reason. It kind of goes back to the very start, have a reason of why you're nagging somebody, right.

Mark: There needs to be an emotional kid. Listen. If my mother wanted me to do the dishes growing up, talk to me about all the guilt associated with me too. I'll get ya. Ma I got you. But if you're just saying, do the dishes, I'm just going to be annoyed. [00:31:00] But if she talks to me about, you know, how my grandparents came over from the ocean and now I, you know, from Poland and now I have all of this, I have all of these opportunities that they didn't have.

Mark: Well, I'm going to do these dishes, you know, anyway, sorry, a little Jewish guilt for you. I am loved my mother. Anyways, so, oh yes. Very Jewish. You should have gone to my bar mitzvah when I was 13, but we didn't know each other then how sad anyways. Yeah, so I think the Trojan horse here is, again, you kinda, you say something that is maybe endearing or reminded you of something it's like, oh, like this CR you know, if I'm dating some of this girl, I'm saying, oh, I got, I got into gestion, you know?

Mark: Oh my God. Remember that burrito we got, no, I'm just kidding. Uh, But you just say like, Hey, you know ran into so-and-so. They said that blah, blah, blah. You know, anyways. Yeah, dude, do you want to just kind of seeing, would you want to go on a, another date or

Mark: some thing like that? I don't really know you go

Mark: Brian.

Brian: this is why we don't. come up with these sorts of things off

Brian: the top of her head. Sit, sit, and think about these [00:32:00] things before you send follow ups. That's

Brian: the first role. Don't just do a

Mark: And don't follow dating advice from mark. Not

Mark: good. I'm out. I'm out. of the game.

Brian: Yeah.

Brian: Well, we were both freshly out of the game within the last couple of years.

Brian: So it's like, we're the success stories mark. So we, they should

Brian: be listening to us, right?

Mark: I'll talk about that in therapy. No kidding.

Brian: so the, the point of this though, is like, if you've had a past conversation, especially at length, especially if they've expressed interest in working with you, this is a good time to, if you want to make an excuse to follow up, give them something of value. To reach out to them. Hey, I just came across this article on blink thought.

Brian: It'd be very helpful for you since you are blank, since you are struggling with blank or since you're working on blank or since you're waiting on blank, whatever it is, they're waiting on, they're struggling with her or try to figure out, let me know if this is helpful or something like that. Like

Mark: Yeah. Just offer some value.

Brian: Offering value is always the easiest way to follow with people like a hundred percent of the time. So let's move on to up type number four. This followup type is when the, the [00:33:00] type of follow-up when you need to move on, on a project.

Brian: So going back to type number two, when he needed us to have a deadline, that's the kind of followups. When you're establishing a deadline, you're reaching out to see if they're interested or whatever, this is at the end. Once you've reached that deadline, this is basically saying like, this is your final chance.

Brian: So, mark, do you want to read the example she gave in this article? And then we'll kind of give our own thoughts on this.

Mark: I'll get through it a little quicker. So it's less boring. Hey, hi Edward. Hi Edward. I'm writing to see how your search is progressing for the senior writer position. I'm still very interested in joining the team. Another opportunity has come up in the last two weeks. My availability might be changing soon, but I didn't want to make any major decisions before knowing your timeline.

Mark: I'm looking forward to hearing an update when you get a chance.

Brian: All right. so what she's done in this email has just very nicely with like very politically correct office speak, which my old roommate, Brandon who's done this podcast was great at, I've never been good. at this. I'm

Brian: always like,

Brian: do you [00:34:00] want to move on or not

Mark: Brandon is so good. Yeah.

Mark: I'm so east coast I'm just

Mark: like in or out.

Brian: Yeah. Like the email just says, are you in or out.

Brian: That's it.

Mark: I'm busy. I'm going out to lunch too and, or

Brian: Yeah. Yeah. So a true professional words, their emails like this and me and mark are more on the like amateur side of this stuff, but there's a few things going on with this. The first is just establishing re-establishing whatever connection I'm writing to see how your search is progressing for the senior writing because blah, blah, blah.

Brian: You're basically saying like, how's it going along in X, Y, or Z? Like here here's that? There's nothing interesting about this. So I'll move on. The next section is another opportunity has come up in the last two weeks basically saying like, this is the thing I need to say this excuse before I tell you this is like the thing that justifies, why, why this deadline or why this ultimatum essentially is being established.

Brian: This is why I am moving on. there needs to be some sort of why. And the a good example is like, my schedule is filling up. I have only this availability I wanted to reach out before I give this to another client or [00:35:00] before this disappear, whatever. And then she goes on to say I just wanted to make sure you didn't want to work with me basically before I move on, before I made my decision, that kind of thing.

Brian: mark, do you want to give a better example for the six-figure creative

Brian: community here?

Mark: I think the best way to look at this is have you ever heard about the DTR that finding the relationship

Brian: Um, Oh, I was thinking about a different three letter acronym that starts with D T

Brian: but I'm glad that you're saying DTR. Got it. Yup.

Mark: No. This is literally defining the relationship. Kind of going back to dating is, Hey, uh, listen, I already sent you three wink emojis uh, over the last two weeks I visited your mother's house and she said, get out of here.

Mark: Listen, I, I, I don't like thinking about you, but I'm, I'm occasionally doing so I have a date coming up. I'm feeling conflicted. Are you into this or not? And that's either. Way's fine. We're still cool. No hard feelings, but got some other interest here

Mark: that's it.

Brian: You basically went from like utter creep to reasonable guy in a span of three sentences.

Mark: [00:36:00] This is how I got married.

Brian: Yeah.

Brian: This is dating advice from mark

Mark: Oh my God.

Brian: Yeah.

Brian: So again, like when we talk about establishing deadlines, if there is a deadline with no consequences, then wasn't really a deadline. Like this is your, this is where you're stating some sort of consequence for missing the deadline.

Brian: This can work. You can find a way to make this work, whether it's for sales, whether it's for collecting files, whether it's for collecting final payment, whether it's for like any, honestly, any deadline at all, there has to be a consequence for it. And this email establishes the consequences. It gives them a final chance to

Brian: take action before that consequence happens.

Mark: And I think what's really important. And I feel even weird having to say this, but I remember where, when I was only freelancing at that time when I was only producing. And if something doesn't go your way, it's very easy to take it personally, because you are your business. So I think the main thing for longevity, the interesting thing about the creative industry versus, you know, more corporate stuff is we have a smaller industry.

Mark: There's just less [00:37:00] people. Chances are the person you have a dream of being connected to is one or two people away right now. Even if you just got started, it's not, it's not that crazy. So really this is an opportunity for you to establish that you can still maintain a good relation with this person.

Mark: There are in other industries advices that you will get where you're supposed to. Pump your chest and say how much you're worth and we've done this, we've done that. It sounds like we are no longer a fit, blah, blah, blah. That is not what you should ever do. If you were in the creative industry whatsoever, you should just respectfully say, this is not personal.

Mark: I have some things going on. You're fantastic. You're great. I just may not have enough time for you, so I may just invest my time elsewhere. That's all you're doing.

Brian: Yeah, that's a really, really, really good point. So is probably the most dangerous of all the follow-up

Brian: types

Mark: because you could easily really screw up your reputation because if you're the young kid or something, that's just getting started and you're talking to somebody who may be a [00:38:00] couple steps, higher like enough steps, where there is a clear difference. If you kind of establish that you're busy or you're too busy or whatever, you just gotta be mindful of how you write this because it could backfire and you could come across as extremely arrogant.

Mark: If you don't write it the right way.

Mark: And people don't forget. People don't forget that.

Brian: All right. So let's move on to this last one, which is one of your, one of your specialties mark. Cause you're good at this. And it's also one that I don't think our audience knows enough about. So we'll talk about this follow-up type and then even give a little bonus advice from mark Eckert himself.

Brian: This is the follow-up when you've just got introed to somebody. First of all, mark explained what an intro is. So our audience is following along. If you've never been introed through email, just explain what that is, right.

Mark: It's weird. Okay. So this is th that's probably the start. So if you, like, if somebody's introing one of your homies through texts, they're gonna be like, Hey Joe, this is Pam. Hey Pam, this is Joe. And then they, they, then you say what you're good at and that's [00:39:00] it. And then they connect through email. because it's very official.

Mark: It can have like, kind of this more awkward, less laid back. What's up, bro. Yo man, it's great to meet you dog. It's not going to be that through text through email. It's always typically going to be very official, even if you are in the creative industry, it's where everybody puts on their official hat.

Mark: So yeah, it's really strange. I'd actually, don't really know why that is.

Brian: So, this is essentially where it's, where like I, want to meet.

Brian: Joe, Joe and I have a mutual friend who also knows Joe Joe. And So.

Brian: I say, Hey, Cielo. I'm just making up stupid names. Hey, Hey mark, can you introduce me to Joe Joe? And mark says, sure. Let me do an intro. And,

Brian: he'll email both of us in an email thread and, say, Hey, Joe, Joe, this is my friend,

Brian: Brian.

Brian: Brian. This is my friend, Joe Joe. Now.

Mark: and so really important thing was strategy here. Typically you intro on email to set a precedent that you [00:40:00] respect people's personal contact information, and they get to opt in whether or not they want to talk personally with that person. An interesting thing about Ian Therese is so for instance, I'm, while I, you know, mainly a producer, I've been in music licensing and publishing for years now, that's, you know, we've been building that a lot and.

Mark: Music licensing and publishing is notoriously very small circle. So getting an intro is one of the most amazing pieces of value somebody can offer you. And it's also, especially if you're in the creative industry, where relationship is the most important thing here. It is really a Testament of how much somebody trusts you.

Mark: Because if I introduce Brian to one of my friends, Brian would never do this, but if he said something really whack, like really strange or just a little off-kilter that could actually ruin my relationship with that person.

Brian: Yeah. I just sent back a 30 page reply of my sock collection And

Brian: how [00:41:00] proud I am of

Brian: all the socks that I have. yeah.

Mark: Yeah, my friend would be like this. Guy's insane. Um, Do not share my information anymore. you know, goodbye. So weird sock dude, never again. so really one of the bigger thing here is if you don't actually have much value that you can offer somebody, anytime you meet somebody, anytime you're trying to get introductions again, this is all I'm doing lately is getting intros to the right people.

Mark: That's my goal for, for the foreseeable year. It's always about how can you provide value? And if you are, lower than somebody essentially on the totem pole and you have nothing that you can do, there's not a single deal that you can come up with that is going to help them or whatever. One of the most valuable resources you have is not money.

Mark: It's not deal. It's not business skills, it's your network. So if you can intro somebody to somebody who's going to help them, you're always going to be [00:42:00] in that equation no matter what. In fact, I know a lot of people that it's kind of best practices, that if they make an intro, it's kind of best practices for that person at that specific level who made the intro to get a portion of the deal.

Mark: That's how valuable relationships can be, because there is a huge risk. If somebody introduced you to somebody they've built that they've built that relationship, they've built their prestige in that particular thing, that getting an intro with that amount of validation as an intro immediately approves your credibility.

Mark: And that is a hard thing to do. So getting good intros by good people to good people. if you can figure that out. And we'll talk about that after going to be a multi-multi multimillionaire. It just

Mark: absolutely.

Brian: so let me, let me paint, like a scenario here. You can read through this kind of this kind of template that she's laid out in this article. And then what we'll do is discuss our own thoughts on what what's a good thing to put in emails that you're, you're intro in, but here's the scenario. [00:43:00] I am a wedding photographer I want to connect with the.

Brian: Wedding planner in my city because this wedding planner is the gatekeeper to all of the major, big budget weddings. Right? So I have a mutual friend, this mutual friend has been kind enough to intro me and this wedding planner so that I can establish a relationship. So this is the scenario that we're in, in this sort of, I now need to know what to say once I've been introed, because what do you say?

Brian: Like I've just been introed. They're like, Hey, this is my great wedding photographer friend, Brian Hood, this is the premier best wedding planner in the entire city of Nashville. She works with a list celebrities. Uh, So YouTube. Go for it now, now kiss. Right. Not, not really kiss, but I just think about that, that hilarious meme where they're like saying now kiss and they push the heads together.

Brian: And

Brian: it's like, if you know what I'm talking about, just ignore me. But they're basically saying like, now take the next step. What are you going to do now? So this the ball's in your court, Brian, which is me, what do I say in this scenario? Read the read, read the template that she [00:44:00] provided here. And then we can just kind of talk more on this scenario here.

Mark: Cool. Hey Katie. Thanks for introducing us. Sam, moving you to BCC.

Brian: So what does that mean by the way?

Mark: It means you are moving them to a portion of the email where they're not going to see all of the future exchanges

Mark: together.

Brian: And this is just common courtesy. Like whatever, whenever they introduce people together.

Brian: if you reply all the person who introed you is now going to get that reply. And then that person who replies is going to reply also

Brian: by putting the person in the BCC, it just removes them from the conversation

Mark: It's literally like getting introed on a group text and then you just text them privately. After that that's moving to BCC. Katie, as Sam mentioned, I'm looking for a set designer for my upcoming show, which is premiering this fall off at act. She's saying your praises and I'd love to talk more about your experience and possibly working together.

Mark: We're assembling the crew by mid may. Would you be available for a 30 minute chat? And in the next two weeks, I'm free in the evenings after 5:00 PM for phone or a video call. Let me know if you're interested in a day that might work for you.

Brian: [00:45:00] So we can obviously bring this back to the example that I just gave, because whether you're a wedding photographer, a music producer, graphic designer, you.

Brian: can kind of get the gist of my example of the wedding photographer. You're being connected to somebody that has a lot of high-end projects that you could take advantage of.

Brian: How do we respond to the situation? So the first thing is we BCC the person who interviewed us. So we're not annoying that person with the conversation back and forth because no one likes being in the group, text, mark are

Brian: all your group texts and I message. Are they all on, do not disturb. So You don't get notified when group texts come in.

Mark: You know what? I just had a whole thing about this because I had a group text that was lovely. It was four to five people. And then one of them decided to add all their friends and the group texts got ruined. And so I've had to create a new one with those specific people. And now I'm in an awkward moment where like 11 of those people are not in this small group text anymore, and I feel

Mark: terrible about it.

Mark: So, yeah, man, you empathize with me here. It's a big

Mark: deal.

Brian: All right. So then, uh, this is moving on with this, this sort of a follow-up when you've been introed, what did we do from here? Like how do we establish a [00:46:00] relationship? Go for the ask? Like, she's doing a bunch of stuff in this email, but I don't really want to go to this template that much because the templates,

Brian: you know, not six-figure creative worthy.

Mark: Yes. Exactly. Are you asking me, or did you want

Mark: to talk about this?

Brian: are you, what do you say when you've been intro to somebody.

Mark: so you have to be cautious. Did they intro you a tactical reason or did they intro you for a strategic reason?

Brian: Yeah. So context context is everything

Brian: in your replies.

Mark: this one that we just read, this is a tactical reason. This person's building a set show or a show. They need to set designer. They got a referral for work. That's that's, you know, like, Hey, similar to, Hey you're a great producer and you've been introduced to an artist. Well, that's, that's very like, okay, you guys are gonna make a track together.

Mark: They're looking for a producer to hire. Right. Now strategic partnerships are a little bit different where it's like, Hey, you guys have like a lot of similar things going on. You're both really smart come from a similar, you know, I dunno town or something. And you guys would vibe, I [00:47:00] think you guys should chat.

Mark: I think it would be a really fun time you guys talking together.

Brian: So

Brian: it's kind of like you have two, two approaches. One is a general approach. Like, Hey you two should chat. And the other one is a specific approach. Hey, you two should chat about this upcoming

Mark: Yeah.

Brian: or this upcoming project specifically?

Brian: Yeah.

Mark: So if it's tactical immediately you say, you know, Hey, this is what I have going on. This is what I need. This person said you are great. I would love to chat. Here is my availability and expectations of the call and what I'm willing to do. me know if you're into that. That's all it

Mark: is. Now if it's strategic,

Brian: Meaning it's just a general call. Like something you think they should connect. Let's just chat about what possibilities we have here.

Mark: yeah, for instance, so like I've been intro to a bunch of people for those of you that no, no, I run that pitch.com and we do, we get all of your songs into licensing companies and music licensing companies. That's, that's what we work on. So we get you deals within music licensing.

Mark: I've been [00:48:00] introed to. People who you know, run licensing companies. I've been intro to music supervisors. I've been an intro to influencers who need a bunch of music, and that's more of a tactical maybe partially strategic approach. But it's mainly tactical. This person has this problem. They need a bunch of music for a catalog.

Mark: They need whatever. Here is the guy, he is the contact me that gets a bunch of songs into these catalogs. So you guys should have a conversation and figure that out that is a problem we are solving.

Brian: And those are like the, and to me, that's the ideal situation. Like we all want to be introduced as a solution to a problem, but let's, let's, let's back out and just say, what if it's not So, specific? What if it is more general?

Brian: Like you two would be a good put, could be a good fit. You two should chat.

Brian: That's

Brian: the general.

Mark: yeah, so typically if it's a good you know, you guys should, should chat for me, that's actually a free opportunity for me to talk to an interesting person and to do research on what [00:49:00] their problems are. and then I guess establish some credibility and authority of what I do, but I'm not trying to get a deal on that call.

Mark: I'm trying to learn as much as I can about that person. So if I do have something to offer, I could help them, but I'm not going out of the gate of I do this. I do that. I'm amazing. The first thing I say is, Hey, so-and-so says, you're awesome. Oh my God, you're doing this, that, and that. Tell me, oh my God, tell me about this.

Mark: That's so cool. And then we just go through that and I don't even care if they ask me. I don't care. They, they, they spent a half hour, 20 minutes an hour with me. They're going to look me up, worse comes to worse. But my whole thing is like, I want to learn about them. I want to learn about their goals, what they have in mind for their future.

Mark: I want to learn about their problems. It's a free way for me to learn about somebody. Very important from a very personal perspective, because if you don't get those intros, what you have to do is you have to nag somebody to get on a call that you don't know. And a lot of times you have to pay for their time.

Mark: A lot of [00:50:00] consultations that I pay for to meet somebody. If I have no mutual connection, I just want to pay for their time as you know, my resort, essentially. I I'm literally just interviewing them usually. I want to figure out what are they going through? what are their problems? How can I learn about stuff?

Mark: And I established that I'm the real deal, not by a mutual connection, but through money. I'm willing to figure that stuff out. So does that mean.

Brian: Yes. so let's talk about like, cause this is an area that I think our audience could be much, much better at. And I know that's just because I could be much, much better at it. We've never talked about it before, because this is not a strategy that I use in any of my businesses. And it's something that I could use in all of my businesses.

Brian: How do you get intentionally get introductions?

Brian: As a, as a creative, as a freelancer, as just a business owner.

Mark: So it depends on where you're at in your business. So you have to think about your resources and then this is kind of ambiguous, but I'll break it down. A lot of people think about resources and they think about how much money they have. And that's just one that's capital resources.

Mark: That's just one like for instance, if you ever played like age of [00:51:00] empires or something like that, like one

Mark: of those strategy games, right? Oh my God. So good. So these strategy games, right? And for those of you don't know, it's like kind of building a little empire sort of thing on a remote island.

Mark: It's dumb. It's great. But you have different resources. You have. You have food, you have coins, you have people and depending on what you want takes different resources, right? And it's no different than what you experienced in business. If you are talking to somebody, maybe they really just want money for a specific service.

Mark: That is what they do. And that's kind of the best case for everybody. A lot of times people want to problem solve. A lot of times, people sometimes just want understanding. You don't really know. And so for me, I have to get in touch with very, very, very unattainable people. There are people that probably have three to 500 unique emails from different people every [00:52:00] single day, trying to get in contact with them.

Mark: Oh, it's, I mean, these are founders of massive companies. And the reason I do that is because when you talk to the person at the very top. There is no other reason for a decision to not be made. And the only person that, if this is very particular to me, because I'm talking about talking to big companies or something like that in music licensing or video companies that need music, et cetera.

Mark: The founders are the only people that are not in a corporate structure, meaning they're the only people that are not worried about keeping their jobs. So what I do is if I talk to somebody that is, you know, maybe middle of it, or, you know, kind of just starting out every time they talk about you, they're risking their job.

Mark: That that is so high friction for you to get anywhere that it's going to take forever. Whereas if you can get to the very, very top, and they're not worried about their job every time they just mentioned you, you're automatically approved. [00:53:00] You're going to talk to everybody. You can. They're going to intro you to everybody because they have the blessing of the person in charge essentially.

Mark: And it's just how corporations, businesses even labels,

Brian: Well, you want to say, bring this back, bring this back to the

Brian: freelance world, because in any world I call these gatekeepers.

Brian: Like these are the. That, that control lots and lots like big, big amounts of

Brian: money for you or lots and lots of projects for you.

Mark: yeah, so getting an intro to that person is very difficult and I promise I'll bring it back the way that you get intro to those people is what I call a referral partner. And what I try to do is, and write this down.

Mark: What I try to do as much as I can is find a common vendor that I am friends with mutual friend is fine. great. But a common vendor is somebody they are already buying from. They're already buying from them for a different solution. And if they recommend you. It's not a vouch of a person it's a cross sell.

Mark: It's an [00:54:00] upsell. And it's a way that if they, if that vendor, for instance, if you're a photographer, okay, we'll bring it back because we're getting really ambiguous. I'm sorry if you're a photographer and let's say that you need to rent out a photography studio for a shoot, right?

Mark: Uh, You need to rent gear. Okay. Let's say this big warehouse studio actually doesn't have any gear for rent. Okay. Well, you're going to naturally ask the person in charge at the warehouse of this photography studio. And they're going to say, oh, you should use this rental company. Well, who are you gonna use?

Brian: That rental company,

Brian: the one that was referred to by the, by the photography

Brian: studio space

Mark: because you're already paying that person. They've established trust. They say they do what they're doing. And you by proxy assume that if they're recommending somebody, that that person is just as reliable. So I try to always find a common vendor. A vendor is just somebody who supplies a product for somebody,

Brian: or service product or service.

Mark: Yeah. So, and that same thing. If you hire out a studio, if you're an [00:55:00] artist, let's say you're actually, you know, paying for time at a studio, you know, thousand dollars a day, really expensive stuff. You need session players. Well, the producer recording engineer is going to get his homeys on it.

Mark: That's just how it works.

Mark: So you want a common vendor that vendor, those vendors, you need to think ambiguously here, it's a vendor. It's somebody who's already gotten the trust of the buyer, that's who you want. And so if you want to work with labels, you want to work with artists, you get tight with the manager or you get tight with not the ANR, the director of ANRs.

Mark: If you want to, you know, if you want the director of an art to start prioritizing you. The tight with the person in charge of operations and the operations person nobody's contacting them. They got 500 people on link on Instagram. They're probably well connected on LinkedIn, but I also try to contact them, the place where you look the most important for me.

Mark: I look very impressive on Instagram.

Brian: It's true.

Mark: I'm an idiot, [00:56:00] but I look impressive there for some reason. I have a decent amount of following, I

Mark: guess,

Brian: you look impressive on LinkedIn?

Mark: yeah,

Brian: Oh, okay. I

Brian: don't I look I don't even, I haven't touched my LinkedIn in like 10 years,

Mark: Yeah, but I, so for business to business stuff, and again, you know, it is relatable to a producer who's on here or a mix engineer is on here is because you're going to get hired by the label. The artist can vouch for you, but you're going to go where there's a deal with the label. I mean, that's happening.

Mark: Like for me doing label work still as a producer, it's like my contacts at the label, the head of ANR is the one who is, you know, dealing with a lot of this stuff. So if I'm tight with that, they're going to recommend you to another person.

Brian: Let me bring this back to our world.

Mark: Sorry.

Brian: Oh, it's okay, mark. You're again. You're like me. You're a, you're a serial entrepreneur. You probably have ADHD

Brian: too. I

Mark: substitute teacher today,

Brian: Yeah. Substitute host.

Mark: I'm Mr. Snavely.

Brian: Yeah. Okay. Mr. Snively. So bring it back to our world. We've talked about this in the past.

Brian: I call it your like your, your referral circle. You can [00:57:00] call it whatever you want, but think about it. Like I'm going to use my, my background in music production as the example here, where and music production. There are a lot of other freelancers out there who serve the same customer as me. So if you are a band, if you're an artist, you might hire me for production or mixing and mastering, whatever it is that you want to hire me to do.

Brian: And then you might also go to a videographer to do your music video. You might go to a PR agent to do your PR. You might go to a lawyer to do, you know, whatever lawyer you have to do. You might go to, you know, there's other people that are serving my client, the one that I've already worked with. So I should have people in all these other positions that I'm referring my clients.

Brian: And by doing that, I'm able to get introed to the other clients that they serve. If there's someone specific that I want to be introduced to, from my videographer that I send tons of work to over the years, they worked with someone that I've always wanted to get connected with. There's [00:58:00] an intro, a chance right there.

Brian: I reached out to that videographer. Can you introduce me to Kanye? I've always wanted to produce Kanye. I've just never been able to get in touch with him because he's weird and he doesn't believe in technology. So can you give me an intro? And my videographer will get it done.

Mark: So yeah. Going back to con yet. No, I'm kidding. The thing is, is you also have to incentivize that person if you

Mark: can.

Brian: yeah, How so,

Brian: How can you do it? Is it is the amount of work that I'm referring them over the years. Not enough of them.

Mark: so check this out. This is kind of the, I'll bring this back to somebody that I literally just ran into at this coffee shop. She's a good friend of mine. And she has a flower business. And basically she was like, how do I get more clients? And so I was just, you know, I was taking a break for an hour.

Mark: I was just hanging out. I was like, all right, I'll help you. So she's great. But she was going, you know, from person to person targeting customers. Right. And I was like, you can't be looking at it that way, who gets flowers? And we made a bunch of different potential audiences, weddings, [00:59:00] corporate events, you know, all these different funerals.

Mark: And so, a few different things. And I said, okay, which one do you think would be the least competitive right now? And we said funerals uh, cause nobody, as far as flower people, going to go for weddings first because it's cheerful. It's happy. And that's what you see everybody talk about.

Brian: And they typically have large budgets too, which is a big incentive for.

Mark: Exactly. So if you go to funerals, I always say, go for the ugly duck first. You know, like back in the day, when I started that pitch, I was working with music supervisors. Those were the sexy ones to get in with now and back then licensing companies and stuff that we work with. Weren't as cool. Now that's where everybody wants to go and we're already set with all of them.

Mark: So, I told her like go to the, all the funeral homes and just give them a ridiculous deal. and I said, the first one that you walk in, give it to them at cost, but tell them if anybody asks I'm this price, [01:00:00] which was a high price. And then going back to what we talked about, the best way to work with Coca-Cola is to say, you're working with Pepsi.

Mark: Alright, she's going around to where all the dead people are going. And she's saying, Hey, This dead center. I'm working with them. We've been working for a while, blah, blah, blah. And then you basically have given that first company as an early adopter that your first client or whatever, you're giving them preferential treatment.

Mark: But they're going to be selling you to every single, you know, funeral that happens there and she's doing phenomenal. you know, it was like an, it was a not even a problem to make this happen. Again, if you want to remix tracks, get in touch with a producer who you know, does a bunch of client work that doesn't do remixes.

Mark: If you're a producer and you want to work with a bunch of artists contact a playlist company that works with a bunch of artists that is doing PR you know, if you're a playlist company, get in touch with a distribution company that has a bunch of artists already,

Brian: [01:01:00] And again, we call the call this the gatekeepers. We we've talked about these today, but the question is, how do you get introed to these gatekeepers to the first one, at least? Like, how

Brian: do you establish the first connect?

Mark: So yeah, if it's the first thing you want to do is if you can find a mutual connection that has a lot of validation, that would be great. If you can't do that. Then a vendor partner, as I said would be fantastic. But if you just send them, like, I just DM everybody on Instagram or LinkedIn. And I start out with similar to how these are written out, but a little bit different.

Mark: I give them a very, very intricate compliment that I truly mean. And I say, you know, blah, blah, blah. You know, in this part of the industry they don't do it this way. And I just want to let you know, I really admire how you've been doing it this particular way. I really admire that because of this reason, that reason and that reason.

Mark: And I just think you guys are overall making people happier than most. And I just wanted to let you know that would [01:02:00] love to, you know chat sometimes see how you got where you are. I think it's really interesting, and there's not many people as aware that I've seen as you in this, in this whatever.

Mark: And typically they'll say yes or they'll just say, cheers, and that's it. And then you respond with another follow up. I'd love to pay for your time sometime, blah, blah, blah. And that's when you put in, you know, so it's kind of level by level mutual friend. That's, that's a big deal. First vendor partner that they're already buying from.

Mark: DM kiss ass. And then the last one is pay.

Brian: That's the last, the last, resort. If there's somebody you really want to connect with, offer to pay for their time.

Brian: Well, she, you know, what's funny is I, will um, I'll get offers for people to pay for my time And I never take it. Like, to me, it's like, you're either going to pay my full a hundred percent rate for what it is that I would charge for anything that I

Brian: do my hourly rate, or I'm going to do it for free.

Brian: that's really it. Or I'm not going to do it at all.

Mark: I don't think I've ever actually really [01:03:00] had to pay. They it's really just a huge compliment to them and they're like, damn, this person's like, all right. Okay. Yeah. Let's like, I'll put 20 minutes aside. It's, you know, it's like, they're really complimented by the gesture itself, but some of the top people that I've offered to pay for their time, never, I just approached it right.

Brian: That's fine. All right. Well, I think that's, that's a good place to wrap up here. just the first things I feel. I wanna remind anyone who needs my followup guide. If you're a music producer, audio engineer, mixing engineer, go to follow up.guide. That's the URL. And if it doesn't work for some reason, again, it's in our show notes over at six-figure creative.com/one 70 slash 1 7 0 a mark work and people go, where do you want to send our audience?

Brian: W where

Brian: do you want them to go?

Mark: if you produce music or you make music at all your artists, whatever, go to that pitch.com. We distribute a bunch of your tracks into a bunch of licensing companies and you keep a hundred percent of whatever deal you land. It's that pitch.com and we have actually a 20% off [01:04:00] coupon for uh, the audience of six-figure creative.

Mark: And all you gotta do is just put in six figure creative,

Brian: Any last thoughts here, mark? As we uh, in this episode,

Mark: Yeah. Again, to kind of just wrap everything up. You conservatively are going to make at least double your income by just having a good follow-up procedure. Really good strategy of knowing when to contact somebody for the right reason at the right time with the right incentivization. So they know when to get back to you with your goal in mind, again, conservatively, you're going to double your income just from this for me personally, I've at least 10 X my income just by again, knowing the art of the nag.

Mark: So yeah, just study up on that. And uh, I, I think you're, you're going to do a lot for your career.

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