How Michael Janda Built A $30,000,000 Design Agency From One Super Power | The Infinite Clients Series

[00:00:00] Brian: Hello and welcome to the six Figure Creative podcast.

[00:00:01] Brian: I'm your host, Brian Hood. If this is your first time joining us for this podcast, first of all welcome. Hi. Hey, hello. Glad to have you here. This podcast is for you if you are a creative who offers freelance services and you wanna make more money from those creative services without selling your soul.

[00:00:13] Brian: If that sounds like you, you're in the right place. For my returning listeners, you may recognize the guest that we have today. He is a, a repeat guest. We haven't had many repeat guests on the show for whatever reason. I don't really fully understand that. think it's 'cause I just forget to ask people.

[00:00:24] Brian: The guest today is Michael Janna. If you could see him on the screen, you know who it is already. He's a big, bald, beautiful man, and I feel like you've gotten even more swole since the last time I saw. Have you been working out more?

[00:00:33] Michael: I'm back. The Kovat era where I atrophied down to normal Humanity is over, and now I'm back in the gym long enough to get some of my mask back.

[00:00:43] Brian: For those who have been listening a long time, you recognize him, episode 2 0 7, the episode was titled How Freelancers Can Use The Rule of Seven to Ethically Get More Clients. It came up July of last 2022. So it's been a year and a half since I've had you on, and you're actually the first guest we've had in about a year,

[00:00:57] Michael: I'm honored by that. I'm honored to be the repeat [00:01:00] guest and the first guest that you've had on for so long, so that's great. Thank you.

[00:01:03] Brian: I'm really excited for the topic we got today to talk about. But before I do, I'll just say for any new listeners people that didn't watch Michael's last episode or listen to Michael's last episode, we talk about his clout and his history and kind of his origin story there a little bit.

[00:01:14] Brian: But I'll just say this, Michael is worth listening to, definitely above and beyond even myself. So if you listen to me and you trust me for whatever reason. Michael is like 10 levels above me. He has a former agency owner that has worked with Disney, Google, ABC, NBC Fox.

[00:01:27] Brian: He sold that agency. You even have an Instagram, $30 million in revenue. I can promise you I have not made $30 million in revenue myself. He's been on the Inc. 5,000 twice. You've authored 200 internationally published books. You got 161,000 followers on Instagram, which is kind of your main platform.

[00:01:41] Brian: so you beat me in every conceivable way. So like, again, if you're on this podcast and you trust me for whatever reason, then you can also trust Michael to bring the goods. So that's my.

[00:01:50] Michael: you're a little younger than me. I'm sure you can play the guitar better than me. And you got a better head of hair than I do,

[00:01:57] Brian: I don't know, man.

[00:01:58] Michael: It's better. Look at

[00:02:00] five-head. Okay, so topics today, man, we chat about this a little bit pre episode, but this is you're like maybe the last or one of the last few episodes in this series we have now called the Infinite Client Series. And the whole thought is we could have infinite clients as freelancers if every single client we ever worked with would refer one client to us.

[00:02:20] Brian: And if those clients never canceled or never stopped working with us, they always came back to us again and again and again. If you did that, you would have an infinite source of clients. It's, to me, an impossible task, but it's something worth striving towards. And so I wanted to bring Michael on here because he has scaled a very successful agency.

[00:02:36] Brian: he has been a part of big teams, small teams. You've done solo freelance stuff. you've done everything you could possibly do, I think as an entrepreneur. So if I'm going to ask anybody about the topic of like, what would you need to do as an entrepreneur, specifically a freelancer, to work towards that goal of infinite clients, what are the big things to do as a freelancer to make that happen?

[00:02:55] Michael: I, okay, so there are a lot of different directions we could go with this and I may, let me start by [00:03:00] sharing a relationship driven story turned into my first million dollar client. So when I was working at Fox, I was a creative director at Fox in the early two thousands, and then the dot bomb happened.

[00:03:12] Michael: I was over the digital division of Fox Kids, Fox family, the dot bomb collapse. We go on life support, our 50 person team turns into six people, and we fulfill the advertiser agreements, and then we end up getting laid off with, along with the rest of the people. That's the moment that kicked me into freelancing because people weren't hiring in the web design industry that I was really focused on at that time.

[00:03:38] Michael: They were laying people off. Teams were getting smaller, not bigger, and people started outsourcing. So one of my first clients was ABC family. And it was what Fox family was, ABC family became when it was sold to Disney. And one of the people there was a former intern at Fox. she was gonna school at UCLA while [00:04:00] she was intern at Fox.

[00:04:01] Michael: She came to my office from the marketing department. I had all the style guides in my office for our Fox Kids brand. And she came in and said, Hey, our marketing director wants to know if we can get three, we need three copies of the style guide. Is that okay? And so she came in and I was like, no problem.

[00:04:18] Michael: I get up, I walk across the room, I give her the three copies, and I was like, Hey, how's school going? How's, how are you liking UCLA? I would've loved to have gone to UCLA living near the beach in Westwood. LA single, just that would've been so epic. And so I asked her about her schooling. I, we talked a little bit about that.

[00:04:37] Michael: How do you like being a, in the marketing intern here at Fox, blah, blah, blah. I have that, experience with her. I didn't think anything of it until three years later. When she graduated from UCLA, she got a job ABC family as a marketing manager product manager, project manager. I don't know what her title was, but it doesn't matter.

[00:04:57] Michael: She got a job there and she started sending [00:05:00] work to me. She sent me a project. She would tell me the budget. She'd be like, Hey Mike, we've got 12 grand for this new made for TV movie. We need a website for it. We have 12 grand. Can you send me a bid? And I would bid it out, scope the project, send her the bid.

[00:05:16] Michael: And then over the course of the first three years of my agency. one time when I was having lunch with her, she said, Hey Mike, you know why I give you all this work? And I said, no, I don't. I'm so grateful though. She said, it's because you remember that time that I came to your office at Fox to get those style guides.

[00:05:33] Michael: And I was like, yeah, that was the first time we ever had a conversation together. And then her quote, this exact quote, she said, you were nice to me and you talked to me. that was it. she became a million dollar client for my agency, my first million dollar client in the first three year run of my agency.

[00:05:51] Michael: And it was all because of that one moment that I actually paid attention to her and asked her personal questions and built [00:06:00] a genuine relationship. I've shared that story on other things before. But man, ever since then, I was like, oh, I get it. The relationship is everything. Why is somebody gonna stay with you forever as a client?

[00:06:13] Michael: Because if Brian's my friend, why would I ever go use somebody else? I'm never gonna go use somebody else. and yeah, he does great work. And you know what? Me as a client, I love helping Brian's business become more successful. I love seeing Brian succeed and he helps me succeed.

[00:06:31] Michael: And I trust that he's gonna be straight with me and he's not gonna gouge me on price. And he's gonna be my friend and I can text him on Friday night and he'll reply to me just because he's, my friend. I'm never gonna go somewhere else. And you know what? When somebody else comes to me with an opportunity and says, Hey, you know, a designer that you're using, I can say, oh, you gotta use Brian.

[00:06:51] Michael: Brian's been a good friend of mine for the last three years. He started out as my vendor, but he's such a good friend of mine now. You gotta use him, you're gonna love working with him.[00:07:00] That's the strategy to infinite clients, man. It's all about building this core relationship where Why would they ever go somewhere else? They're gonna leave you like your best friend from high school's gonna ever leave you the vendor.

[00:07:14] Brian: here's the funny thing about this is I've done like four episodes I think, at this point, on this Infinite Client series, and I'm glad I personally did not talk to you about the things that I've talked about or discussed so far. But one of the things I have not discussed for whatever reason is the relationship with

[00:07:29] Michael: Really?

[00:07:30] Brian: Okay. So I'll tell you what I've discussed so far has all been around. Fulfilling on the service that you do. So client onboarding, communication, all those things that like make sure the project runs smoothly. it's so funny.

[00:07:41] Brian: I can get so into the weeds that I forget. The most important thing is the relationship. And I put a couple notes based on what you said. You treat every single person like gold because you never know where they're gonna go or who they're gonna be. And that people only wanna work with people that they like and they only wanna send their friends or referrals to people that they can trust.

[00:07:58] Brian: And that all comes back to the relationship you [00:08:00] have with the person. So that is definitely a topic that has slipped this series so far. I'm glad you brought

[00:08:05] Michael: so glad that you haven't talked about it, because that's all I want to talk about on this, man. it's because when all things are equal, what is the difference between you and all of the other creatives that want that same client from you? There are millions of people that can do design quality at the same level that I can, millions of those all over the world, so I can't compete.

[00:08:27] Michael: In fact, there are so many that can do it even better than me. That's not gonna be my differentiator, as a creative freelancer. That's not your differentiator. For every design you can do, I can find somebody who will do it better. I know I can, because there's so many better designers out there.

[00:08:43] Michael: There's only a handful of little prodigies in the world, and they're not hurting for clients.

[00:08:49] Brian: There's only one best in the world.

[00:08:50] Michael: exactly. Okay. So that's not your differentiator. You can differentiate in price. So maybe you can do it cheaper and people will choose you instead of the more [00:09:00] expensive, better version.

[00:09:01] Michael: Well, That business sucks. that's not the Differentiator that you want to lead with. You can build a reputation and they might choose you because of your reputation. Okay, you are Aaron Draplin, and if you want a logo from Aaron Draplin, it's gonna be X amount of dollars and you're gonna pay it because Aaron Draplin designed it.

[00:09:18] Michael: Or even bigger a Michael Beirut. We're gonna go to Pentagram because Pentagram's gonna design it. And yeah, it's gonna be $2 million, but it's gonna be a Pentagram logo. That's what we want stamped on our logo design. So reputation is a reason somebody will buy the thing that can differentiate you the the most.

[00:09:37] Michael: Okay? Now reputation is a tough game to play go spend your 40 years of your career reputation, working up the ladder to build your name. Most freelancers, that's not the game you can play right now in your business. You can a good friend of mine on from Instagram circles is James Martin, made by James and done

[00:09:57] Brian: had him on the

[00:09:57] Michael: Yeah. He's an amazing logo designer [00:10:00] and he's done wonders over the last two to five years building his reputation. But what did it take? Tons of content on social media, writing a book that, his book is amazing his design work is amazing, but man, he's had to hustle and spend a lot of time and money building his reputation.

[00:10:19] Michael: That's a game you can play, but it's not the game that most creative freelancers want to play or are even capable of playing. But everybody has the ability to play the relationship game. that's the differentiator, the difference between me and all of the other people that would've done work for Google at the same level or better than me and my agency.

[00:10:41] Michael: What was the difference? The difference was that I had a friend at YouTube who used to be a client at ABC family, and then I built a friendship with him, client vendor, but that became a friendship when he goes to YouTube. He reaches out and says, Hey, I'm at YouTube now. Can you do a project for us? And then we become a [00:11:00] Google vendor, and then we start building relationships with people in Google.

[00:11:03] Michael: And then that starts turning into work, and then that starts turning into referrals because now they're referring Mike, my new friend, to other divisions of Google. That's the relationship game and, you can start playing that game in your small town right now. Go to the freaking Chamber of Commerce meetings and meet the people who own the coffee shop and meet the people who own the insurance agency and the whatever.

[00:11:27] Michael: Build those relationships in small towns. One of the very first people that I ever coached did that. She built her business. Her name's Laura Lee. She's amazing. She built her little agency in Clarksville, Tennessee, which is like forty-five minutes outside of Nashville. she's built a great little agency being the big fish in a small pond.

[00:11:46] Michael: But most people in the business circles know of her agency and have relationship with her. She's super outgoing, super friendly. She's built those relationships. That's the differentiator. Why would they ever go somewhere else when Laura [00:12:00] Lee's down the street and she's my friend? 'cause I've seen her at Chamber of Commerce meetings, luncheons for the last three years.

[00:12:06] Michael: I'm not going somewhere else.

[00:12:07] Brian: All right, so this is a huge point. your differentiators. You listed out our skill set. Very hard to compete with pricing.

[00:12:13] Brian: It's a death trap if you wanna compete on price. you cannot afford to be the lowest price because someone probably overseas can undercut you. And the, price that you can get a project at, where that's the differentiator is not a sustainable price. So then reputation and clout, that takes time.

[00:12:26] Brian: And not all of us have 40 years and then relationship. And that seems to be at least this list so far, the easiest. I think there are some others. They're not gonna get into right now 'cause it's outside of the, I think the scope of this specific topic of like infinite clients, but relationship I wanna talk on that more because this is something that I think a lot of my background is in music production, audio engineering, things like that.

[00:12:46] Brian: And in my world, in that scene, social skills are hard for a lot of people. I'm thinking of some specific people that I know personally in my head that just naturally are not socially outgoing. They're not energetic. I wouldn't call 'em people [00:13:00] persons, know that this is not something that can probably be the differentiator for everybody, or can it, Do you think some people are just not inclined. To be that type of person, the relationally focused person or Do you have to be outgoing? Do you have to be energetic? You have to be loud and bubbly. Like my wife has an infectious personality. If you know her or if you follow her content on Meg's, T-room or if you know her in person, she is like everyone's best friend because that is who she is. I am know close to her on that level, but I still try, you know. how gifted do you have to be in that area to really let this relationship be the differentiator?

[00:13:30] Michael: so of the best books ever written that should be a must read is How to Win Friends and Influence People. It's been out for a hundred years. book exactly every self-help book that's been written since 1920, whenever that book was written, wishes that they were How to Win Friends and Influence people.

[00:13:48] Michael: It talks about the Abraham-Lincoln's of the world and their ability to understand human engineering. That's how it's phrased human engineering, how other people think and how to [00:14:00] interact with them to build quality relationships. And it should just be called How to be a good Human.

[00:14:06] Michael: that's what that book should be called. I hate the title of it, but, how to win friends and influence people. Sounds like you're using people it sounds like. Here's how you, win 'em, and then you

[00:14:15] Brian: gives 'em what they sells 'em what they want and gives 'em what they need. it's like the perfect marketing

[00:14:18] Michael: Yeah, it I've read it a ton of times. I've probably read that book five times. And I recommend it all the time. Now I believe that people can learn to come out of their shell and gain confidence in who they are as a human.

[00:14:31] Michael: But it takes work for some people, more work than others. I was painfully shy, hide behind my mom's leg when I was a little kid. I was painfully shy. And my innate nature when I go into a group of people is to be like, oh, no, I gotta go and try and act like somebody that I'm not really inside of me. I'm insecure, but now I gotta go fake it and go into this group and try and fake like I'm outgoing, which I do.

[00:14:59] Michael: I've been faking [00:15:00] that for years. I'm super comfortable on podcasts and things like this, smaller groups. I'm super comfortable in smaller groups, but when I go into a networking thing with 200 people in there, I'm like, oh my gosh, how in the world am I gonna Get outta my shell for this. I just go and pretend I'm somebody else, man.

[00:15:17] Michael: I know some of these people that are just naturally these outgoing, bubbly people. Sounds like your wife is one of those. I know people who are like that naturally, and so I just go and suck it up and pretend I'm somebody else. I think you gotta learn it though. I think if you're gonna be an entrepreneur, it's a skill you have to have in order to succeed.

[00:15:38] Michael: You can't achieve the highest level or even a quality level of what you want to achieve without being able to sit in front of a client and articulate an idea and be confident in your sales approach or your solution. You have to be able to do it. It's a skill you have to learn. [00:16:00] You have to be able to network and build relationships so that you can entrench yourself.

[00:16:06] Michael: In a relationship of trust with current clients and then get them to refer you to people that they know and want to transfer that trust from them to their friend. you had to learn Photoshop at some point. Most of the people listening here how did it feel the first time you opened Photoshop?

[00:16:23] Michael: It felt awkward. You're like, where's the freaking tool? I don't even know what I, what tool I'm even supposed to use. You gotta look at this human engineering, the same way. You gotta look at it and say, where do I start? I gotta smile more. It's one of the freaking chapters in the book, man.

[00:16:36] Michael: And if you look at the intro of this, of when we started this, if you're watching this on video, if you look at the intro, while Brian was introducing me, I was sitting there smiling. It's so natural now in just how I've wired myself to be. I was just sitting there smiling. I'm smiling now as I'm talking.

[00:16:55] Michael: But I wasn't that way, man. I'll send you my pictures from high school. When I was like [00:17:00] deadpan face, I didn't know that I needed to communicate through just my body language. So you gotta start somewhere and you just start learning it one tool at a time, thinking of it like a piece of software.

[00:17:12] Michael: Smile, call people by name, ask them about themselves, ask follow up questions. There's all these little tools in the toolbox of human interaction skills that you gotta start learning. Don't hide from it.

[00:17:25] Brian: there's a series I did back in January.

[00:17:27] Brian: So actually just over a year ago, episode 235 and 236 of the show, and it's the full stack freelancer series where I discussed this concept of. Your creativity is likely not the thing limiting you at this point in your career. It's almost always some other skill that you've not developed because you're so obsessed with your creative skill that you ignore all these other skill sets that you need to learn.

[00:17:49] Brian: You don't have to master, but you need to learn in an effort to become a better, more rounded entrepreneur. So go back to that series and we talk about some of the things we're talking about here, but this episode is a really good like deep dive into [00:18:00] one of those other skills in the full stack set of skills that you need as a successful freelancer, and that is people skills or relational skills.

[00:18:07] Brian: That being said. You said the words human engineering and I both love and hate that phrase. I love it because my engineering brain says this is a solved problem. There's things that I can do. It's like in the office where I think it's Andy is like, I'm gonna win, Michael over by Shaking of the head using of names and mirroring.

[00:18:25] Brian: that's what I think of when I think of human engineering. So what are the ethics of that? Like faking things versus being real? Is it something that you just have to fake it first until you actually becomes a natural response? What do you think? Or about the entire, like human engineering phrase or concept.

[00:18:39] Michael: Great question. My answer is don't fake it. Don't fake it till you make it.

[00:18:44] Brian: What if it's not a natural for me? Like, what if I don't typically smile? Like what if I have the face where you just, you look mad all the time, yeah. That's it. That's it right there. Yeah, whatever. Just make sure the camera's on Michael for whatever faces he was trying to make.

[00:18:58] Brian: What if my face is naturally that, and I'm not a [00:19:00] smiler, so I have to fake to smile, but that's better for you in this like world where you're trying to be more likable, more approachable, and not look like you're pissed off the whole time. is there anything wrong with faking it if you're not natural?

[00:19:11] Brian: I think if you're not natural at it and you have to work towards it, you are faking it. But I don't necessarily know if that's a bad thing or not.

[00:19:16] Michael: okay, I don't believe in faking a relationship just to get gain. I don't believe in that,

[00:19:22] Brian: I think that's where the ethics

[00:19:23] Michael: yeah, I think that's where the ethics are But I do think faking that you're happy, there's this whole, what comes first, the chicken or the egg there's studies on if you smile, you will feel better.

[00:19:35] Michael: It's not the other way around. If you feel better, most people think, oh, if I was happy, then I'd smile. There's actually a psychological change that happens in you. If you smile, it actually makes you start feeling happier. So forcing yourself to do it, there's something in that. And from the science standpoint, I'm not an expert on that enough to talk deeper, but what comes first the smile or feeling happy?

[00:19:59] Michael: Who [00:20:00] knows? I think put on a smile. What, the harm in that? You're not faking that you're somebody else. You're not faking it to use somebody for another relationship. You're just doing it to have better human interaction abilities.

[00:20:15] Brian: then there's somebody out there that's like, I'm never doing that. I'm never faking a smile that's not authentic.

[00:20:20] Brian: Let me reframe it. If you are learning a new sport. are not faking it, you are practicing, and I think there's a difference between Faking it and just practicing something that you're trying to get better at.

[00:20:30] Michael: that's why you have 296 successful podcast episodes That's solid gold man. You're practicing. You're practicing it. You're not faking it. So another book I like is the Four-Hour Workweek and Tim Ferriss. It's a lot of random thoughts in there. And there's this one section in it where he talks about practicing, making eye contact with people and he gives you the challenge to go walk around the mall or the streets or whatever and practice making eye contact [00:21:00] with strangers.

[00:21:00] Michael: Not like serial killer eye contact or anything like that, but just making that eye contact and practicing it as you go. practicing is the right word. You're not faking it, you're practicing smiling, you're not faking it, making eye contact, you're practicing making eye contact. The faking it part I think is if you're doing it disingenuously to get gain.

[00:21:25] Michael: Then there's a problem. But for me, my perception on all of my client relationships was this. I'm gonna go in and I like having more friends. Brian and I, I can't believe it's been a year and a half since we did our last episode. But I consider you a friend. We've spent hours now talking on the phone, talking on Zoom calls.

[00:21:42] Michael: You're in my friend pool and it came out of this. Is there anything disingenuous about this? No. It's just building relationships for the sake of building relationships. Have we ever approached each other about, Hey, okay, maybe if I go on Brian's podcast, then [00:22:00] he'll shout me out and then I'll get some more course sales.

[00:22:04] Michael: That's the disingenuous part. And if I came into this with that mindset, it would be inauthentic. But I come into this just thinking, you know what? I like Brian. I like his mission. I like talking about this stuff. I talk about this stuff all day long, every day. It's my business life right now. I like it.

[00:22:22] Michael: And if it helps somebody, then great. And if somebody buys something from me down the road, then that's great too. But if not, you know what? Brian's, my friend so my life is better just because of that. And if you go in that same mindset with your clients where you go in and just say, you know what?

[00:22:37] Michael: I'm gonna build a relationship with this person just for the sake of building a relationship and my life is better with more positive relationships in it, that's the win. And if something comes of it as a byproduct, then great.

[00:22:51] Brian: Alright, so I think We've reframed it now and the goal is to practice things that we are maybe not gifted at naturally. And I know this, when anytime I read this book again, I'm [00:23:00] holding up because I paid a lot of money for this first edition and I talk about all the damn time. Anytime I read that book it's brought to the top of my mind the things that I have let fall off to the wayside.

[00:23:08] Brian: And so anytime I read it, I find myself doing things more that I wouldn't naturally do. and again, that's not me being disingenuous or me being fake. It's me practicing something that I just read. I. Not unlike any other skill. if you just listened to an episode about me talking about a new onboarding Sequence for your freelance business like it was four or five episodes ago, then chances are like, you could practice that.

[00:23:28] Brian: It's like, I need to go put those things into place and it didn't work. So I'm gonna fix things. I'm gonna try it again. I'm gonna try it differently because this represents who I am a little bit better than what Brian said. It's the same thing in this book. That being said, practicing things, there's two things.

[00:23:39] Brian: Again, if we're trying to make relationship as our differentiator, then I put it into two buckets. I always try to sequence things in my brain and, lump 'em together. So like forgive me for processing this way, but being likable. Being trustworthy. And I look at those two distinct things.

[00:23:53] Brian: If you are disingenuous, you might be likable, but you won't be trustworthy and you might be trustworthy. But if you are not likable, then people don't [00:24:00] ever get to trust you. So we kind of need both of these things for the relationship to really form. What are some of the things around being likable that you think, ' we need to, practice in order to become more likable.

[00:24:10] Michael: most people love themselves a lot. And if you wanna be likable, then talk about them. Not you Ask them about their day, their life, how they're feeling, how they like their job. I. What are their challenges they're facing? Ask them about them. And that's one of the things in the book, if we're talking about how to win friends and influence people, ask them about themselves.

[00:24:34] Michael: call them by name. That's another one too. Use their first name. your name is the sweetest sound and the whole world. Everybody loves to hear their name. Not everybody I know there's people sitting here listening to this and they, they hate their name. But that's not the chapter of the

[00:24:47] Brian: Don't ever use my name. It's Xandorf. That's an awful name. sorry for all my Xandorf's out there.

[00:24:51] Michael: you know what my nephew's name is Thor. Odin. Janda. I'm so jealous. my parents could've named me Thor. They named me Mike. It sucks, man. [00:25:00] It It sucks. Anyway there are just those little things, how to be likable. Don't try and be likable. Ask them about them.

[00:25:06] Michael: Take a genuine interest in them. And then all of a sudden you're gonna find that people like you a whole lot because people generally like themselves and like that you're taking a genuine interest in them. Now, don't do it in a disingenuous way, actually care, and you're gonna find that if you actually care about other people, they're gonna like you.

[00:25:27] Michael: Everybody likes to be around people who actually genuinely care about them. So be that person

[00:25:32] Brian: What if you naturally don't care about people? Now we're getting to a dark area. We're not, we're getting to a dark area, but I just know people that are like, I don't wanna listen to them talk about roasting coffee, I roast coffee. That's something that I talk about and do. I make my own ghee butter?

[00:25:45] Brian: I make sourdough from scratch. I have my interest and I'll talk about those things to anyone who will listen, but most people don't give a shit. if you don't care about what someone is saying you're doing, is there something you can, can do to practice to care more?

[00:25:56] Brian: Like, is that a,

[00:25:56] Michael: broaden. Broaden your interests because you talking about [00:26:00] roasting coffee. I don't roast coffee. I don't even drink coffee. And you talk about it, and I'm like, I would love to hear more about that. That sounds interesting to me. I just came back from visiting my parents back in Indiana and my dad is on this thing now where he watches videos. Man. He canceled live television. He doesn't have any cable. He just turns on YouTube and watches YouTube things. And so I, my dad's 82 and I spent a lot of time laying on the couch with my dad in the room watching Documentaries about everything under the sun man from the history of the domestic dog going back to Chromagnon times of a docile wolf turning into Entrenching itself with a human, and then it had more baby docile wolves, and then all of a sudden we have domestic dogs over time.

[00:26:45] Michael: Anyway, true or false, who knows? But it was interesting to me. So the step number one is. Widen, the lens that you have of the world and start to take genuine interest in things that you don't know about. That's something that can be [00:27:00] practiced. I think that if you genuinely don't care about people, man, Fix that be the world has enough of that already in place. You don't need to be part of that. This is the message to the people who are listening. You don't need to be part of that man. Just turn on freaking any of the news channels and you'll see plenty of people who don't care about the other people or their opinion.

[00:27:21] Michael: That world is no good. And that world does not usually yield success for an entrepreneur. It yields contention and uncomfortability and problems and stress. I'd say. The summation of that is broaden your things that you're interested in, and realize that everybody knows something that you don't know and has a passion that you might not find being a passion, but dial in and figure out what it is and be willing to talk about it.

[00:27:50] Brian: just some notes from what you just said there. I like taking notes and I like recapping them and then giving my own spin on things.

[00:27:55] Michael: do so

[00:27:55] Brian: it's my show. I get to do this. Uh,

[00:27:57] Michael: He do whatever you want.

[00:27:59] Brian: you're talking about [00:28:00] your dad. I'm like, that sounds like my kind of guy like. have a wide interest in a bunch of just random crap.

[00:28:04] Brian: but that's not everybody. I'm thinking why is that my guy? Why do I wanna watch dog documentaries with this eighty-something year old man? It's because I am like Genuinely curious person. I'm curious about so much. I Google so many things. I found that I love chat GBT for just diving deep into random holes that I should never go down.

[00:28:22] Brian: Not even, not negative, like never, but like that most people would never bother going down. Like, anything. I will just like, oh, I'm just gonna ask chat. GBT that. What about that? What about this? Like, I'm reading the book Outlive right now by Peter Atia and there's just so much technical crap in there.

[00:28:36] Brian: And I find myself having conversations with Chad GBT about the things he said in the book, because I wanna know more about that and I wanna have a conversation with something. So being curious opens you up to broadening your interests, which allows you to connect with people at a deeper level. You're not closed off to new ideas.

[00:28:51] Brian: You're open to new things, and you're humble enough to know that you don't know everything. These are all things that I think will help open up your mind to actually genuinely give a shit [00:29:00] about people around you versus you being in a bubble.

[00:29:02] Brian: You being not humble, not interested, not curious. This is the way things are People can't change. I can't change and everyone sucks except me. I think that's a terrible way to live. I don't think many people listen to the show are like that, but maybe a couple out there.

[00:29:14] Michael: while you're talking, I was thinking, man who, who's really good at this, and the person who I think is a savant in this type of approach is somebody who was mildly successful in a few things before this, but is the bomb in this. And it's freaking Joe Rogan man. Joe Rogan can have anybody on his show and he is gonna be engaged talking for hours about any topic.

[00:29:43] Michael: It could be about freaking making strawberry jelly Man. And he would take such a deep interest in it and somehow fill a two-hour podcast talking to the world's foremost expert in making strawberry jelly. And we would all be like. Oh man, I'm, I love that episode. [00:30:00] That was so good. and Spotify's like, here's another a hundred million man.

[00:30:03] Michael: stay

[00:30:03] Brian: heard it was 300 I heard 300 million.

[00:30:05] Michael: million. So, there are people that in the world that you can learn from that do this so well, and you go back to Joe Rogan. I mean, he, what was his background before that? He was involved in MMA commentary. He was like a sidekick comedy

[00:30:19] Brian: Fear. Fear factor.

[00:30:21] Michael: stand-up comedy fear factor.

[00:30:23] Michael: And all those things were moderately successful by most of our standards. But man, he slays it on this one thing when he found his superpower Being curious and not being afraid to ask the question. And he never comes across offensive when he does it. I mean, You can learn so much just about this human engineering you shrugged a little when he, maybe he.

[00:30:42] Brian: I'm not a fan

[00:30:42] Michael: Maybe he comes across offensive to some, but okay. You are not a fan. but

[00:30:47] Michael: you're the minority of people because I mean, he wouldn't have these kinds of deals and this amount of listeners if he, did,

[00:30:52] Brian: he has a rabid audience. He has genuinely curious, he's built a $3 million podcast deal way beyond what [00:31:00] I've ever done. So I, I just don't follow him and I don't really listen to him. that's,

[00:31:03] Michael: listen to his full episodes, but for some reason I get bombarded with shorts, We all probably do on YouTube. One minute Snippets of Joe Rogan. I watch like 30 minutes a day of Joe Rogan because I get so much of that stuff feeding to me.

[00:31:16] Brian: so we talked about the being likable thing. So it's talk to them about them, not necessarily you. to me it's like I will talk to someone about them and if they never ask me a single question, they're probably not my person. So it's a two-way street.

[00:31:26] Brian: If you have somebody of, equal like level of, being likable, use people's first names, smile, actually give a shit, these are all great things about being likable, but let's switch to the other side of things about being trustworthy. What are some of the like golden rules or standards you had for yourself when you had your agency, for example, that kept you being trustworthy, that kept you being someone that was referrable anyone that was referred to you, they knew that you would take care of them.

[00:31:49] Brian: That takes trustworthiness. talk about that.

[00:31:51] Michael: don't play. Games don't play pricing games don't play price gouging. Games don't play communication games. Don't play the [00:32:00] games that a lot of people have Potential tendency to think that they need to play Don't play games. Just be upfront and say, okay, well this is what we would like to charge.

[00:32:11] Michael: How much. does that work for you? Take that genuine care in what the client's position is and the budget that they might have to work with, and have those kinds of open conversations with them. Not the games of, psychological manipulation, trying to eke out the biggest price point you can from clients.

[00:32:30] Michael: So I think that's a big one. Clear scope. Clear scope. And then do what the freak you say you're gonna do. If you say you're gonna deliver it on Friday, then deliver it on Friday or Thursday if you can do it. Don't miss the deadlines, don't miss the commitment on anything, and then scope these projects in detail in a contract, and then fulfill the contract.

[00:32:55] Michael: Hold yourself and your client accountable. Oh, sorry, that's not in the contract or [00:33:00] Hey, that's not in the contract, but we're gonna add it. I'll send you an addendum, but we are not gonna charge you for it. We're just gonna add it and have an addendum anyway, just to have documentation that the scope changed.

[00:33:10] Michael: We'll have you sign that before we get going. Like those kinds of things. Build trust structure and organization, man. Take the difference between going to Disneyland versus going to the county fair. which one of those types of amusement parks do you want to be? Well, The Disneyland experience with this scanned tickets and the turnstile lanes and the flow of the stuff and the showtime printed on the agenda and stuff, and the app to tell you, here's where you are and here's how long the wait's gonna be.

[00:33:43] Michael: All those things don't exist at the county fair. But a lot of creative freelancers operate their business willy-nilly like the county fair. And they're not trying to be that more trustworthy experience that you get at Disneyland. How many times do you [00:34:00] see a fight break out between two drunk dudes at Disneyland versus the county fair in Clarksville?

[00:34:06] Michael: Tennessee? go to the county fair. You probably find some fight happening from some people because it's okay in that environment because it's so willy nilly and unstructured and unor or disorganized.

[00:34:18] Brian: It also attracts a different type of person as well, we can put the same kind of thing on freelancing. Like when you run your business like the county fair, you're gonna get county fair clients.

[00:34:26] Michael: you are. and they're gonna haggle down the price and they're gonna expect it for $15 entrance fee instead of $115 entrance fee. I think that that's a big part of building that trust. With clients. If they perceive you as disorganized and unstructured, then they're gonna want to try and run your business for you.

[00:34:45] Michael: They're not gonna trust that you're gonna show up for the meeting or that you're gonna have a structured report or a document to walk them through. If you do that stuff, man, the trust factor goes way up. [00:35:00] It was a big reason that my projects scaled from five grand projects at the start to be $500,000 projects that we were landing at the end of my agency, because I would walk the clients through these detailed proposals, here's how we're gonna execute on this.

[00:35:17] Michael: Here's the objectives that you're trying to achieve, and here's how we're gonna fulfill those things. This is our process. And by the way, meet Sally, she's gonna be your account manager. She'll walk you through this whole project. All of a sudden the client's like, man, this is gonna be great. I don't have to manage these people.

[00:35:33] Michael: They're like self-manage. All I have to do is say, go. And they're gonna tell me every step of the way what this experience is gonna be like. that builds trust in the client relationship for sure.

[00:35:43] Brian: , Michael, I gotta say something you said there made me think a lot less of you, and I gotta tell you, it's this on your Instagram bio 30 million in revenue, and that was a really impressive number until I realized these $500,000 projects, these million dollar projects, that's like 60 projects that you've probably done in your entire career.

[00:35:58] Brian: That's way less impressive.

[00:35:59] Michael: [00:36:00] it was thousands of projects. I wish they were all $500,000 projects. we had one $500,000 project. We had like three, $300,000 projects But we had a bunch over a hundred thousand, but in the early days. Okay. So my average cost per project over the entire agency run was $16,128.

[00:36:18] Michael: if we got 30 million projects, how many does that add up to? 30 million.

[00:36:23] Brian: about 1800 seventy-Five

[00:36:24] Michael: Okay. you divide that by 15 years and you got a hundred-something projects per year, which is ten-something projects per month. And so you break down the numbers like that and you're like, all right.

[00:36:34] Michael: That seems like a load that a small agency could handle. But when you hear the big number, you're like, whoa.

[00:36:39] Brian: I'm gonna talk about a couple of these things you brought up when it comes to being a trustworthy freelancer. Having a trustworthy business so that you're referrable to people.

[00:36:44] Brian: 'cause you will not get referrals if you're not trustworthy. You will not get repeat clients if you're not trustworthy. You'll never have infinite clients if you are not trustworthy. So you said no games, price gouging. You might charge too much for one client 'cause you know they got more of a budget or too little for one client 'cause of the favoritism thing.

[00:36:59] Brian: Although [00:37:00] sometimes there's places for the favoritism thing or like the client who believes in you early on. So you always kind of cut them a deal. That's fine. But no pricing games. But what about, you said communication games. What do you mean by communication games? I'm like, do I do communication games?

[00:37:10] Brian: What is a communication game? What does that

[00:37:12] Michael: Should I reach out to 'em today? Or will that look too needy? Maybe I should wait till tomorrow. No. they owe me an email. I sent that to 'em on Monday. I'm not reaching out to them until they reach back out to me. It's on them. none of that crap. If you haven't gotten the response, then reach back out.

[00:37:28] Michael: When you feel the prompting to reach back out and just say, Hey, just checking in. Just wanted to make sure that you saw my message from the other day. No pressure. I know you're busy. Don't feel bad about those kinds of things. But some people tend to get into these communication games in their head thinking.

[00:37:44] Michael: Am I being too pushy? Am I not being pushy enough or Nobody's saying, am I not being pushy enough? Freelancers are oftentimes afraid that they're being too pushy. Ooh, if I send that message, will that be too much? If I send them my case studies now, when we haven't even really talked about the project, is that gonna come [00:38:00] across too salesy?

[00:38:01] Michael: Man, stop thinking about that stuff. If you feel like you should send your, case studies over, then send them. Don't overthink the communication aspect of your

[00:38:09] Brian: it's similar to like the dating games, like after the date, you don't text for like two days you

[00:38:14] Michael: don't wanna look too needy.

[00:38:16] Michael: will this make me look like I'm needy. Like I don't have any work. I'm like, tell the client, Hey, I loved our meeting yesterday. I would love to work with you. That's not a relationship game. The relationship game is, oh, I gotta not reply because I don't, I want to look like I'm busy.

[00:38:31] Michael: But I've gotta look like I have time for them I hate that stuff. Tell your client, you wanna work with them. Tell your client that you want to work inside the budget, that they have a reasonable budget. If you have a reasonable budget for this engagement, I would love to work with you on this project.

[00:38:47] Michael: Let's talk numbers. What can you do? Here's what we charge. Can you do that? Do we refine the scope? I love price anchoring. But I don't consider a game necessarily.

[00:38:57] Brian: there's no black and white here. So like when you talk [00:39:00] about sales, there's a dance going on. call that a dance, not a game, And a dance is fun. You can dance too hard. You might be trying to twerk when they're trying to have a waltz and like that doesn't go well together.

[00:39:08] Brian: So like do the tasteful dance. But weird thing I've ever said, that's a weird image in my head,

[00:39:14] Michael: What do you recommend forking or waltzing? I mean, where are we going

[00:39:17] Brian: Depends on the venue. It depends on the venue, right? Depends on the client type. Okay. So I get that, I get the communication games, and one thing you noted that you, you didn't go back to, but I thought of this is I've been guilty of this before, is you let the pride swell up, you let the ego swell up and you play the game of like, well, they owe me the reply.

[00:39:33] Brian: I'm not reaching out to them because of X, Y, and z. Another communication game you mentioned that is, again, I felt called out in a good way and I'm hoping that our, our listeners felt equally called out to like, Hey, if you are literacy on an email because you, refuse to respond because it's the balls in their court and it would be better for the project and the client.

[00:39:50] Brian: If you responded now go send that response now and then let us know. One more thing about the clear scope thing, and we'll kind of wrap this up, but clear scope is just telling them what you're gonna do, making sure you both [00:40:00] agree on what you're gonna do and then doing what you said you're gonna do.

[00:40:03] Brian: And it's funny how low the bar is mean I gained so many projects in my career over. Just people that didn't do that, and so they had to find somebody who could do that, and I was the guy that did it. picking up the messes of other people.

[00:40:12] Brian: I've, done that and I've seen how many people just can't do the bare minimum. But you said one thing in that around missing deadlines. You said holding the, client accountable that it's something that's, really talked about. It's clear that like, hey, we can say when we're gonna send something to the client or when we're gonna do something, but holding the client accountable seems like an odd thing that, I think I did not do this throughout most of my career, where like you're saying, I need these revisions back from you in three days,

[00:40:39] Michael: Yeah. And holding them accountable to the scope that you both agreed upon too. So both of that is the thing. So if you say you're gonna do a website that has 10 pages and they say that they want to add four more pages, and if you add those four pages without documenting it and articulating that it's out of scope, you're not fulfilling the contract.

[00:40:59] Michael: [00:41:00] You. As the freelancer, you are in breach of contract and so is your client, but who has most of the blame? I don't know. they added the stuff. You didn't push back and at least say well, it's gonna be four more pages than what we agreed upon. Here's an addendum. Whether you charge them for it or not, you should still document that it was out of scope and you modify your agreement at least in an email Correspondence you say, okay, just so we're all square here, this is about acting like Disneyland instead of the county fair.

[00:41:28] Michael: Just so that we're all square here, our original agreement was gonna be a 10 page website, but you want to add these four pages. We've agreed not to charge you for those four extra pages, but I just wanna have some here. So just reply back to this and say, yep, that's what we want to do. And I'll say, yes, we agree to it and we're not gonna charge you for it.

[00:41:46] Michael: then our agreement is back to square. We are in agreement, but so many people, freelancers, and I did it so long, I did it for 10 years in my agency, man. Where I'd just be like, okay, well if that's what they want, I'm not gonna [00:42:00] step on any toes because I don't want them to get mad at me and leave.

[00:42:03] Michael: It's that kind of thing. At some point you have to start playing the big boy business game. Let's call it the big person business game in 20 twenty-three, the big person business game.

[00:42:13] Brian: Twenty-twenty-four,

[00:42:14] Michael: Whoa. It's crazy. Things happen. Okay, so then you gotta start playing the big person business game and acting like a real business, or you're never gonna become a real business.

[00:42:25] Michael: you don't become a real business by growing and scaling, and then all of a sudden you wake up one day and you're like, oh, I better start having contracts with my clients. That's not how it happens. You start having contracts when you have no employees and a small business, and then it helps you manifest growth in the business that you want to have.

[00:42:46] Michael: Start acting like the business you wanna be, not the business you are right now. It's a little thing I say in some pieces of content, it holds true. I wish that I would have learned that and done it sooner. I didn't start acting like a real agency until I [00:43:00] probably had like five or six employees then I was like, man, I better up my game on this.

[00:43:05] Michael: I got payroll now. You know, I gotta act like a bigger business. I can't just do everything so Willy-nilly like I did when I was a freelancer.

[00:43:12] Brian: it's one of those call out moments, like if you're listening to this podcast and you're not a six-figure creative and you wanna be a six-figure creative, it's probably because you don't treat your business like a six-figure creative business.

[00:43:20] Brian: You're not doing the things that six-figure creatives do. On the flip side, if you're already earning six figures, you're trying to get to multiple six or seven figures, you've gotta start acting like the people at that level already in order to get there. It's not, I'll get there and then I'll be like that.

[00:43:31] Brian: It is be like that in order to get there. So you nailed that point. One more

[00:43:35] Michael: Okay,

[00:43:35] Brian: how do you decide, is it just a gut feel or is it a framework you have or is there some other decision-making criteria on when do you charge for the stuff outside of scope versus when do you just give it to the client for free and goodwill?

[00:43:45] Michael: it's a gut feel. It's on a case by case basis. you know what, let's go back to being likable. If the client is likable and they're my friend, then the likelihood of me charging them for the extra thing is a lot lower than if I [00:44:00] hate that client and they're abusing me and they make my life miserable.

[00:44:04] Michael: Alright, you want one extra page, bam, here's your change order. Give me another thousand dollars. so there's something in business, going back to, bookending this with the beginning about just having good relationship skills, whether you're the client or the vendor, have good relationship skills and you'll be amazed at how much better people serve you if you are a good client to them and you care about that relationship and being likable and trustworthy to them.

[00:44:31] Michael: But it is just a gut feel. I probably did change orders. 25% of the time, 10% of the time, something like that. The rest of it, I would look at the numbers and this is how I would phrase it to a client. I'd look at the numbers and I'd say, okay, you asked for one extra round of revisions on this.

[00:44:46] Michael: I checked back on the hours we've spent and the time that's been invested so far, and I think we're still good on the project and the budget can stay where it is, but if we have another round, then we'll probably need to charge a change order[00:45:00] or send an addendum or whatever. But I don't think this one's gonna take too long, so we'll just absorb it in the original cost.

[00:45:05] Michael: Man, that goes a long way to building trust with a client and likability and it's a business-like response that still makes you act like Disneyland and not the county fair. It still makes you be structured and methodical in your business and your client will look at that and say, wow, okay.

[00:45:23] Michael: Man, Brian, thanks man. Thanks for the extra round. And they'll also be saying, I better not ask for another one, or he's gonna want to charge me. And that's fair. I get it. I shouldn't get unlimited rounds because that's not what's in our agreement. you're setting the framework for a successful relationship doing that kind of thing with the client.

[00:45:40] Michael: But how often do you do it? It's a gut thing I didn't do it all that often. Change orders. I hate that. I would rather bid it right at the start, give myself enough padding to absorb a. Fluctuation in the scope if we need it, and then stick to the price, even if the client [00:46:00] needs to modify the scope a little bit.

[00:46:02] Michael: I'll look at that on a case-by-case basis. And if it's a big modification, let's rebid the whole thing. If it's a small modification, I'm either they're gonna do it for free or I'm just gonna send you a small change order to absorb the cost of it.

[00:46:16] Brian: I look at it sometimes if it makes it easier for anyone out there who's like me, and it's like it's hard to do that extra thing and not charge for it sometimes depends on the business and the model and the pricing structure and the client type. Look at it like a marketing budget expense. It's like I'm investing into this client.

[00:46:31] Brian: I'm not getting paid, but the goodwill that I get from that is just part of my marketing budget that will yield a return on investment. It may not be today, it may not be tomorrow, but it'll be a 10 x return on anything that I invest into this client. Assuming that I like the client and I want more clients like that.

[00:46:45] Brian: you don't wanna invest into the bad clients, you wanna invest into the good clients. at

[00:46:48] Michael: love that. Okay, and here's the little nugget on top of that. If you do it without documenting it, then you're doing it for free and you're not even getting goodwill if you do it and document it and send the client a new [00:47:00] PDF that says, here's addendum number one to our agreement. This was gonna be a 10 page website.

[00:47:05] Michael: Now it's 14 pages. Here's what it was. Here's what it is. Now, charge zero. We're not gonna charge you for this because we can absorb it into the thing, but you still send the formal PDF. Now you're acting like a big person company. And you're getting the goodwill in a formal way from the client. They've got a document that says, man, Brian's a good dude.

[00:47:26] Michael: I'm so glad he didn't charge me for that thing. And that's a great way to practice change orders as well. Start sending your client addendums to the agreement when they go outta scope, but don't charge him for it. Put $0 and give them just a goodwill discount. Don't call it goodwill discount, but that's the mindset that you do say, this is the change of scope.

[00:47:45] Michael: It's not gonna cost you anything. And that's a great way to practice that until you get comfortable just being in that documentation flow. And then in the future of one, have the conversation with the client and say, okay, we can do that, but it's gonna be an extra two grand. [00:48:00] Are you okay with that? And then you negotiate the price to implement it.

[00:48:04] Michael: It's amazing how many clients really don't want the thing all that much if it's gonna cost them more money. They're like, oh, we got this great idea. And then you tell them, well, okay, well that is a great idea. I really love it. It's gonna be an extra $2,000. And then they're like, ah, you know what? We don't really need it.

[00:48:18] Michael: But you almost said yes. even though they don't even really want it. And you almost said yes to doing it just to abuse yourself. Man, so much of that stuff exists the creative industry.

[00:48:29] Brian: damage omission to myself here. Never done a change order. Didn't even know what a change order was. Not part of my business. I learned that today and that's why you should listen to Michael over me. That's,

[00:48:39] Michael: man.

[00:48:41] Brian: alright, so wrapping this up, man. Michael, where would you like to send our listeners to, to learn more?

[00:48:44] Brian: You got something? I don't even know what's out. What's out there that you wanna

[00:48:46] Michael: you can just go go to my website, Michael Janda comm, or check me out on Instagram at more Janda. Actually at more Janda on any of the social platforms. YouTube and Instagram are kinda my primary locations, but that handle works on [00:49:00] everything.

[00:49:00] Michael: But Tik-Tok, Some dude took more janda on TikTok. He has one post on there.

[00:49:04] Brian: He's squatting.

[00:49:05] Michael: for sure is squatting on it.

[00:49:06] Brian: out

[00:49:07] Michael: so I'm most janda on TikTok, but everything else that's more janda Yeah. You can go to my website and I've got, courses and my community and stuff on there.

[00:49:14] Michael: But,

[00:49:15] Michael: love getting DMs from people. So if you listen to this and you're like, Hey, I liked your conversation with Brian, Brian's not so smart, but you gave some good things. I'm just kidding.

[00:49:25] Brian: no, you're right. You got it.

[00:49:27] Michael: but I liked your part. Then send me a DM for that.

[00:49:29] Michael: That's great

[00:49:30] Brian: Yeah. Everybody gonna send him a DM on Instagram and we'll have links to everything he linked here. Pass episodes that I mentioned here, all on our show notes over at sixfigurecreative.com slash 2 9 6. That's the quickest way to get to the show notes for this specific episode. With every link ever mentioned in this episode, our team's awesome at finding that, and I hate podcasts where something gets mentioned and I can't find the damn link.

[00:49:50] Brian: Sixfigurecreative.com slash 2 9 6. Michael, thank you so much for coming on the podcast again, and it better not be a year and a half before you come

[00:49:56] Michael: man, I'm glad to come back anytime and then let me shout you out for a [00:50:00] second. You're on episode 2, 9 6 when you mentioned the Simpsons. Do you know how many episodes the Simpsons have? 760. it's the longest running show in history and you're like almost halfway to the freaking Simpsons. Man.

[00:50:13] Brian: That's kind of It is pretty

[00:50:15] Brian: I'll have a Simpsons episode when I hit that exact number.

[00:50:17] Michael: it's pretty, it's pretty impressive. It's hard to do a podcast and to keep the consistency up as long as you've done it. Kudos to you, man. It's great podcast. Thank you for having me on.

[00:50:26] Brian: Thank you for coming, man.